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 |  truck blocks -- ben, 02/16/2001
i just bought a 73 F700 dump truck and the seller told me it has a 361 or a 391 in it. are these engines in any way related to the 360 or 390's that i read about here? from what i can tell, they look very similar to the FE's except that the thermostat housing/location is noticeably different! any thoughts on this one? thanks |
|  | crank snout is thicker, dist opening bigger. -- ., 02/16/2001
Otherwise, most parts not relating to the above interchange.
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| |  | Forged steel crankshaft, also has -- mcj67, 02/16/2001
Block is cast with reinforced main webs,
Also 64-78 has bosses for cross-bolted mains -partially- cast from 427 molds.
(I think that it only has the bosses cast in on one side so you can't set it up for cross bolt mains, you will see once the pan is off)
It may have heaver cylinder bore walls.
Connecting rods are 13/32"bolts /larger than std.390eng of 3/8"
Cyl. bore is 4.05" / Same as std. 390 bore.
Crankshaft is forged steel, stroke 3.79"/ std. 390stroke is3.784"
391 crankshaft can be milled to fit to a std. 390 block!
The snout has to be milled to 390 spec.
The flywheel flange has to be milled thinner to 390 spec.
The391main journal is 2.749" / The 390 main journal is 2.7488"
Someone will be able to explain the minute difference in the main journals. It may be that the FT used a thicker bearing?
There is only 2-10/1000 of an inch difference in them.
There is a bushing availibil so you can run regular 390 and aftermarket distributors in the 391 blocks.
If you just cut the flywheel end of the 391 crankshaft down to std. 390 spec. you can bolt this 391block up to regular car and light truck standard and automatic transmissions.
You got your hands on a poor mans CJ with the right heads cam and intake.Have Fun Mike Jones |
|  | RE: truck blocks -- RC Moser, 02/16/2001
In addition you HD 391 uses the 4.05 bore (also the 361) has a extra compression ring, lower compression (dished pistons) 361 pistons used a full skirt and 391 a slippery skirt due to the extra stroke on the crank) and designed for the low end torque requirements of a large truck. Also, the FT crank is a forged steel crank (stronger) compared to the passanger car cast iron crank and the FT cranks have a larger counterweight than standard cranks (slower to get the RPMs up but more torque due to the extra weight of the crank)(a newton's law of ?) and require external balancing at the flywheel. Basiclly you have a engine made for industrial use which usually means it's stronger. A very good motor...Related in looks, but, check spec. before swapping parts... |
| | | Larger exhaust manifolds -- T1M, 02/16/2001
Or at least that's what the owner of a 391 told me |
| 428 Heads -- Jim, 02/15/2001
I am having problems identifying which heads are the correct heads for my engine. It's a 428 and it's in a 1967 Shelby GT-500
The car came with 2 sets of heads and 2 sets of exhaust manifolds. The ones on the engine are C80E. I know those are not the correct heads. The other set are C7AE I think they are correct, but I'm not certain. Both sets of manifolds have 2 bolt holes. The heads have 4 on the ends and 3 in the center on both sets. I'm completely confused and cannot find any info on these. I think the C80E heads are CJ heads, but what about the C7AE heads? too many exhaust bolts HELP I NEED INFO |
| | RE: 428 Heads -- salid, 02/15/2001
C8OE-N are CJ heads, they have 16 bolt holes on the exhaust side. Sounds like your C8 heads are either -A, -B or -F, they each have 14 bolt holes.
The Shelby Registry lists the C7AE-A head for the 67 GT-500. It is just like the 390 GT and has 14 holes. I know were a set of these are if you need them. The 67 GT-500 also used the 390 GT exhausts. The exhausts manifolds only have 2 holes for each port, so not all holes on the head actually get bolts. Exhaust manifolds should be C6OE-9430-A for the right side and C7OE-9431-A for the left. |
| |  | RE: 428 Heads -- Jim, 02/15/2001
The one set of heads that came with the car are C7AE-A and the one set of exhaust manifolds are C7OE 9430 and C70E 9431A.
Then the original manifolds would not use all the bolt holes in the head. Is this correct? |
| | | RE: 428 Heads -- Brad Wear, 02/19/2001
Salid,
I'm looking for a set of 428 heads if those you mentioned are still available. Brad |
| | | | RE: 428 Heads -- salid, 02/19/2001
Jim, it looks like you have the original stuff. You are correct, the exhaust manifolds only have 8 bolt holes, so you obviously only use 8 of the holes (the diagonal ones) in the head.
Brad, I think they are still available. Recognise that they are not CJ heads. They are same casting number as the ones that were installed on the 67 Shelby GT-500, although I do not know what they originally came on. They have the standard size valves and ports. I'll check on Tuesday to see if they are still available and get back to this post that night. As with any used heads, you should plan on going through them. You may (probably) want to go ahead and install hardened seats on the exhaust side and CJ sized valves. Porting, by someone who knows what they are doing, will also help performance. |
| | | | | RE: 428 Heads -- salid, 02/21/2001
Brad
The heads are still available. They are complete, but you should consider them bare castings. I would put in hardened exhaust seats and CJ sized valves with new springs and get them ported. Recognize that these castings have larger water jackets than the CJ style heads, so you would not be able to open these ports up to CJ size. Spring height is critical when completing the valve job, so make sure you have someone knowledgable about FEs do the work. I can recommend some one here if you decide you want these heads. If you do want them, we should probably correspond directly. |
| FE Head info wanted -- Chip, 02/14/2001
Looking for info on a set of heads I have ...they are C1AE...6090
They have the numbers 37 near one spark plug hole and the letters DIF near another plug hole...the motor came out of a T-Bird ...I have the motor less Intake ( was supposedly a tri power system)and Distributor ....The lifters are solid with ball & cup pushrods and adjustable rockers. could this be 390 HP heads? What would the cc of these be ?
Any help greatly appreciated
Chip |
| FE Casting Numbers -- Ed McClarty, 02/14/2001
I recently came across an ad for a 428 Cobra Jet engine for sale. When I phoned the seller he claimed it is a Ford replacement for the 428 CJ available from 1970 - 74 with casting numbers M2T. Does anyone know what this is? |
| 66' Fairlane 390 GTA engine oil pressure(update) -- Terry, 02/14/2001
Thank-you all very much for your responses. I installed the liquid-filled mechanical pressure gauge at the filter and noticed no improvement in pressure. It reacts quicker than the cheap gauge and I'm still waiting on the Auto-Meter unit. I talked with the engine builder and he said the oil pump he pulled out did have a stuck relief valve in it. I asked him what clearances he had on the rod/main bearings and he said .0025" on each. He said he put in new cam bearings. The pump that is in the car is a Melling high volume/hi pressure with a new stock oil pickup. I asked him if the oil filter could be defective. He said it is possible but hasn't experienced any with Motorcraft FL1-A filters. I asked him if a oil gallery plug at the front of the engine or on the rocker shafts might be leaking. He said it most likely would be the one behind the cam gear if any were leaking. I told him I would change the filter and put in new 20-50wt. Valvoline oil and get back to him. He said if it didn't improve that he would come down and pull the motor and repair it. Makes me feel good he is standing behind his work. If it does have to be pulled It will be a bummer since it sounds very strong and I have never heard the lifters make any noise either. Any more ideas anybody?
Thanks! |
| | RE: Need more answers to the above post. -- Terry, 02/15/2001
Can someone please respond to the update above? I have some more questions for the experts.
Thanks!
Terry |
| | | RE: Need more answers to the above post. -- KarlJay, 02/16/2001
Most of us don't remember the info from the original post. Can you give us another breakdown of the facts. What oil pressure are you getting (hot, cold, idle, 3000RPM). What work was done...
Without all the details, it's hard to give a good answer. |
| | | | RE: Need more answers to the above post. -- Terry, 02/16/2001
total engine rebuild. New camshaft with new bearings correctly installed. .010"/.010" grind on crank with .0025"/.0025" clearances respectively. Melling high volume/high pressure oil pump with new pickup tube/screen. Block cleaned and magnafluxed. Oil pressure for cold engine: 55-60psi at 1300rpm and 40-45psi at idle of 950rpm. Oil pressure at operating temperature (190 deg F.) drops to 35-40psi at 2000rpm and 8-10psi at idle of 950rpm. No lifter noises at all. New mechanical liquid-filled oil pressure gauge installed at the filter area with an additional mechanical oil pressure gauge for inside the car. Both gauges read the same. When engine rpm goes up the oil pressure goes up quickly when cold and when at operating temperature. The oil pump and pickup tube/screen have since then been replaced with no improvements or changes in oil pressure. The liquid-filled gauge has been added since that repair with no differences between the gauges. The engine runs very strong and has no abnormal noises. No oil leaks at all. No oil in coolant or vise versa. Oil level is full and is 20-50wt. Valvoline oil. So is the Motorcraft FL1-A possibly defective by bypassing pressure or could there be an internal leak in the engine from one of the oil gallery plugs causing this loss in pressure ?
Thanks! |
| | | | | RE: Need more answers to the above post. -- Rusty, 02/16/2001
The only problems I've ever had with the oil pump pressure relief valve is debris causing the the valve to stick an actually blow the oil filter off of the car (messy). You're low end (hot) oil pressure does sound a little low. One way to check the cam plug area is to get an oil pressure priming shaft and spin the oil pump with a drill. This will allow you to look down the distributor hole and see if a large amount of oil is coming from this area. I wired up an oil pressure sensor light in my race car that comes on if the O.P. drops below 30psi. This light stays on when I come back from a run (O.P.) usually around (20-25 psi) or lower at idle. I'm running a minimum of 0.0035 rod bearing clearance though.
Rusty |
| | | | | | RE: Need more answers to the above post. -- Travis Miller, 02/16/2001
Years ago a friend put a crank kit in his engine (not a Ford). When it was cold it held good oil pressure. When it warmed up the oil pressure dropped to 10 lbs. He tried everything then gave up and tore the engine back down. The company that sold the crank kit had sent .010 under rod bearings with a .020 under crank. He caught it before any damage was done. |
| | RE: 66' Fairlane 390 GTA engine oil pressure(update) -- mcj67, 02/16/2001
Hey Terri, I agree something is not quite right, Fords are famous for lower oil pressure while ideling at operating tempatures, but it should be higher than 10 lbs. The measurments he gave you on the connectong rods are good. But I did not see where you listed what the builder said the camshaft bearing clearances were, or if your builder checked the camshaft bearing clearances when he installed the camshaft.
Just because a new camshaft with new camshaft bearings were installed does -not- mean that the clearances are positivly correct. It's rare (but not unheard of ) sometimes the wrong parts are packaged together, and that is why its best to check the inside diameter of the camshaft bearing in relation to the outside diameter of the camshaft mains to confirm that there is proper clearences, because of the diffculty involved in getting back in there to correct a problem this should be checked at the time of installation.
A lot of builders will skip this check for one reason or another.
The bearings can be measured with a bore gauge before installation, since the inside diameter of the bearing will close up a little once it is driven into its bore you need to allow for this also to get the true size of the inside diameter of the camshaft bearing, than subtract the outside diameter of the camshaft main from the inside diameter of the camshaft main bearing to get the oil clearance of the camshaft bearing.
You stated that the first oil pump had a stuck relieve valve.
If the oil pressure spiked while this pump was installed than the oil gallie plug you mentioned behind the camshaft gear may have pushed out.
Other sorces of internal oil leaks could be.
Excessive bearing clearances, as mentioned
Bad mating surfaces between oil pump and block
Oil gallie plugs- rocker arms, rear of block , front of block, ect.
Cracked block in or around one of the oil passages.
Once you have rulled out everything that you can easly check than it becomes a guessing game
You will have to determin weather to pull it or not.
Do you drive it every day or just for show, will it idel in traffic for long periouds of time?
It's a shame to have to tear it down but if you want it right its starting to look like this is what you may need to do.
Depending on the individual, some people will not put the same amount of time, effort,or enthusiasum into a comeback that they did on the inicial job.I am not saying that your builder will do this, it's just something else to take into consideration when desiding weather or not to pull it and tear it down.
This is about all I can help you with. Gook Luck, Mike Jones |
| 66' Fairlane 390 GTA engine oil pressure(update) -- Terry, 02/13/2001
Thank-you all very much for your responses. I installed the liquid-filled mechanical pressure gauge at the filter and noticed no improvement in pressure. It reacts quicker than the cheap gauge and I'm still waiting on the Auto-Meter unit. I talked with the engine builder and he said the oil pump he pulled out did have a stuck relief valve in it. I asked him what clearances he had on the rod/main bearings and he said .0025" on each. He said he put in new cam bearings. The pump that is in the car is a Melling high volume/hi pressure with a new stock oil pickup. I asked him if the oil filter could be defective. He said it is possible but hasn't experienced any with Motorcraft FL1-A filters. I asked him if a oil gallery plug at the front of the engine or on the rocker shafts might be leaking. He said it most likely would be the one behind the cam gear if any were leaking. I told him I would change the filter and put in new 20-50wt. Valvoline oil and get back to him. He said if it didn't improve that he would come down and pull the motor and repair it. Makes me feel good he is standing behind his work. If it does have to be pulled It will be a bummer since it sounds very strong and I have never heard the lifters make any noise either. Any more ideas anybody?
Thanks! |
| Rocker Shafts -- J. Robb, 02/13/2001
Are the rocker shafts for 427s and 428s the same as 390s? Looking at a pair of Harland Sharp hardened shafts if they are the same for the 390, they only list 427 and 428 as applications. Just double checking.. thanks |
| | RE: Rocker Shafts -- Rusty, 02/13/2001
Yes, the shafts work for 360-427. The difference between 390-428 and 427's are in the stands. The medium riser/Tunnel Port stands are wider. If you are in a position that requires hardened shafts, make sure you get a set of end support stands. They are very cheap insurance.
Rusty |
| | | RE: Rocker Shafts -- ANDY, 02/13/2001
There seems to be alot of different shaft /stand combinations around. Some I have seen are big dollars (everything is big dollars when your buying with the Australian peso). Which combination of stands and shafts represent the best value for money for the hard running street/strip motor and which supplier is best? Thanks
ANDY |
| | | | RE: Rocker Shafts -- Rusty, 02/13/2001
I buy custom made chromemoly shafts from a friend for $200 a pair. He also makes end support stands (I think they are around $150 for (4). These work real well on the type of engines I use (575hp @ 7200 RPM with K-Motion valve springs that have over 400 lbs of open pressure).
Rusty |
| | | | | RE: Rocker Shafts -- ANDY, 02/13/2001
Thanks Rusty. What do you use on the centre stands?
ANDY |
| | | | | | RE: Rocker Shafts -- Rusty, 02/14/2001
On 428's I use the stock aluminum center stands.
Rusty |
| What model for GT390? -- Jeff Barrow, 02/13/2001
Hi,
I read a recent posting here singing the virtues of the Pertronix ignition module. I'm convinced & would like to buy one. as I live in New Zealand, I'd like to try & source locally. I have a '68 GT390 Mustang with standard single point dizzy. What model Pertronix do I need? |
| | RE: What model for GT390? -- Ace, 02/13/2001
dont know about getting one locally in New Zeland but nearly all the on-line Mustang restoration sites like NPD.com, mustangsplus.com, and mustangsunlimited.com have them form around $49.99---$59.99............the modules are the same for all years and only change because of 6 or V8 status and between single and dual point distributors........so you will want to order a V8 module for a single point distributor.........and I recommend getting the Flame Thrower* coil , it works great with the unit and is a real hot coil for much better spark..........their only around $40..........hope this helps |
| Water pump swap -- Paul, 02/13/2001
I am replacing the water pump on my 352 with the Edelbrock and the alternator brackets are not lining up. Any suggestions guys? |
| | RE: Water pump swap -- Rusty, 02/16/2001
I use this same water pump with a 428 cj, and all of the brackets work fine. You many need to shim behind the alternator mounting bolts to get everything aligned properly.
Rusty |
| Starting my GT-500 has become a drag! -- Morgan, 02/13/2001
Well, it's become a real drag starting my 67 GT-500. Cold or hot it does not matter, the starter turns real slow before the motor kicks over. first I thought it might be that Delco battery that is in it. But had the system load tested and every thing checks out fine. So that leads me to believe that its the starter.
Where do I go from here? If I am going to buy a starter I thought then why not buy a high torque starter. I called about a Mean Green starter, BUT thats $310.00! Is it worth it? does any other manufacturer make a Hi-torque starter for the Ford FE. Hey any other input would be great.
Morgan |
| | RE: Starting my GT-500 has become a drag! -- Dave Shoe, 02/13/2001
Ministarters is the only way to go if you run either headers or high-compression with your FE. Stock FE starters just don't cut it when the heat or load starte to climb. Not even the spendy NAPA rebuilt starters - as frequently demonstrated by stories in the FE forums.
I've repeatedly heard the Tilton works great. That's what's going into my next build.
I know the McCord (or whatever that McName is, I forget) ministarter doesn't fit any FE with Hookers (I've tried Galaxie, Fairlane, and Mustang Hookers - all no-go with this starter. Manifolds would seem to work).
The CVS is also rumored to be a good item.
Never heard of the Mean-Green before, but with a name like that, it's GOTTA be good.
Mini-starters do crank the motor over faster, better, and seem to live lots longer, but you gotta fork out the money. You don't need to break down far from home or swap starters too often to realize the price is worth it.
Shoe. |
| | | You can make your own! (long) -- martin edridge, 02/13/2001
I know I'll wish I never said this, but I made one myself after seeing the prices (about $450). The mini starters/high torques starters seem to use one of two types of motor, both of which come off other vehicles. The 'Mean Green' type is used here in the UK on Maestro/Montego diesels but I can't find one with the same gear reduction ratio as the adverts claim. I also don't like the look of them! I ended up using the same one that Tilton and many others use, which is a Hitachi unit off a Japanese light commercial (don't ask - I don't know) It boasts the same GR as the adverts (3.7:1) and it works great on my hot 460 which doesn't like to crank when hot. There was a bit of engineering to get it on there but not much really, plus the real machining can be avoided as you can buy the pinion/clutch assembly separately (I made mine!) and that's all you need apart from a piece of 1/2" aluminium to adapt to the Ford bellhousing. Look on the 'net to see the differences and make it yourself! Much smaller, lighter, more powerful and easier and cheaper here than a stock starter! Mine cost £20 from my friendly van spares man plus I got a recond one later as a spare for the same price! Sorry for banging on so long but you can do this for peanuts, and I know how miserable it is to have car that won't crank. HTH
Cheers, Martin. |
| | | | Great tip, Martin. Might do that on my '71.[n/m] -- Mr F, 02/13/2001
n/m |
| | | | RE: thanks for the tip Martin -- Morgan, 02/13/2001
Thanks Martin for the tip. |
| | | | RE: You can make your own! (long) -- Mario Van Wiechen, 02/14/2001
There was a post on the FE forum some time ago from a guy who was welding the nose cone of the new style Ford ministarter into an FE nose cone to make the Ford starter work on his FE. I emailed him for more details but never got an answer and have never looked at the whole premise hard enough to make any guesses as to its ease of manufacture.
I wonder if there would be any market for a custom made nose cone to do the same thing? Hmm, some thing to think about. Make it project # 20 for when I get some time. |
| | | | | You seem to know something about machining: -- ., 02/14/2001
Can you tell me where I could buy some basic materials?
Small quantities of aluminum particularily.
Also, how/where do you get a tap and die set for a two inch opening?
I have a pipe threader, which I inherited, but never used. Can this be used? How do I make sure the threads cut with it match the cuts I make to thread it in to?
Thanks |
| | | | | | RE: You seem to know something about machining: -- Rusty, 02/14/2001
I just bought a new CVR Protorque from Jegs ($180). If it works as well as it looks, it should be great. I did have to remove two bolts and rotate the starter to get it to work with my headers. Also, you have to cut the small pad off of the block that protrudes just below the head get the starter to fit properly. This is real easy to do while the engine is out of the car, but I think it will be nearly impossible with the engine installed.
Rusty |
| | | | | | | FE starters -- John, 02/15/2001
I have owned two FE mustangs with Hooker Super Comps, and also own a starter and alternator shop in SoCal. I've built several new stock bodied FE starters with new high torque internal components. With a 750CCA battery and heavy duty cables I have had no problems. I also tried several aftermarket FE starters and could not make any of them fit properly. The Hitachi/ Nissan 280ZX units will fit, but I personally don't think much of their reliability and repair prices. A rebuild is usually more than $100 and I have seen several with broken gear shafts. I am not trying to turn this into a self serving forum, just thought I would throw in my two cents worth. |
| | | | | | | | RE: FE starters -- Rusty, 02/15/2001
The main reason I went with the aftermarket starter was the 8 lbs. weight savings. I'm going to start the car up tomorow, so hopefully it will work well.
Rusty |
| | | | | | | | RE: John, Good Input and... -- Morgan, 02/15/2001
What is the phone number to your starter and alternator shop in SoCal? |
| | | | | | | | | RE: John, Good Input and... -- huttjd, 02/16/2001
i would also be interested in your number. im in the middle of building a 410 with 12:1 compression. im sure that the original 65 starter would be hurting in short order. |
| | | | | | | | | | FE starters -- John, 02/18/2001
Sorry for the delay in responding, thanks for the kind words. I would be happy to help anyone with starting or charging problems. My business is in San Diego County. The phone number is 760-746-2276. We are open 8am to 5:30pm M-F, and 8am-12pm Sat. PST. If I am not in please leave a telephone number and I will gladly call you back. E-mails are also welcome. Looking forward to hearing from you. |
| | | | | | RE: You seem to know something about machining: -- Mario Van Wiechen, 02/15/2001
For small quantities of almost any material I deal with a local place called Metals Supermarket and one of the local fabrication shops. There would be a place close to you, it may take some looking & asking. Expect to pay a primo price for small piecses I know I do.
For the tap I assume you are talking about big pipe taps, I would go to www.kbctools.com. You can buy online. Sizing the threads with the pipe threader is a matter of experience & trial & error. Sorry I could not help more. |
| | | | | | | thanks. -- ., 02/15/2001
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