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 |  Difference between 1970-1973 2V & 4V heads 351c -- Phil B., 01/13/2001
In regards to the 1970-1973 351c engine what are the differences between the 2V heads and the 4V heads in the intake port size,combustion chamber size and the intake runner volume along with the deck height and what head gasket thickness are we talking about to acheive the advertised CR of 11.0:1 for the 351c-4Vengine? |
|  | For many of those specs, click "Engines" - above. [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/13/2001
n/m |
 | Help to Identify a Clutch Fork -- Rick Thompson, 01/12/2001
Anyone know what a C8AA-7515-B clutch fork is used on? Thanks for the help. |
| oil mods 428 -- doc, 01/11/2001
I recently rebuilt a 66'428plain. I did all the mods I"ve read about exept restricting the oil at the heads.I don"t race,but I do stomp it to the floor on occaision!!! I"ve heard only mecanical lifter setups need this.Any input on this subject would really help! My vehicle is a1970 f-250 camper special ranger (originally 360 2barrel) C-6.The 428 came from a 66 galaxy.I"m running 270H-10 magnum Comp cam.(not too sure of my choice any imput welcome) block is 40 over,crank is a 1U turned 20 under .I lined up the mains,drilled the 7/16th hole ,cleaned up the drain holes in the back of the lifter valley.I used sealed power cast pistons(I"m on a budget!).My engine building friend talked me out of moly rings,kicking myself now.S/P HV pump,ht2083 lifters,erson adj. rockers and springs,comp cam push rods,performer non- RPM manifold (don't tell ED) I bought it for the the 360 and reused it.We rebuilt the 7-liter's autolight 4100,but considering other options(any suggestions)Also a crane xr-700 ignition to replace the points,mallory cap,taylor wires,stock truck exhaust manifolds for now and finally dual exh.This motor has 1500 miles on it,I"m running pensoil 10/40 (considering synthetic). Enjoying my FE and its torque!!! DOC |
|  | The 4100's good, but somewhat shy on cfm. [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/12/2001
n/m |
| | RE: oil mods 428 -- Dave Shoe, 01/15/2001
I don't believe synthetics buy you much of anything if you change your oil
regularly and it's not -10F or colder. I generally only run synthetics in
the winter, but it frequently hits -20F and lower here. Refined oil is
really good stuff, and it's what I tend to run the rest of the year.
10w40 is my summer favorite, but 10w30 sometimes gets dumped into my
427FE in in the spring and fall if the spirit moves me. If I ran the car in a
road course race (I don't), I'd probably run synthetic, and probably
something like 5w50 Mobil1, and I'd probably change it before the race and
switch back to the cheap stuff after the race. For street driving, I don't
sweat oil at all. As I see it, FEs just aren't fussy about the type of
oil - they just hate sucking air into the oil pump.
Oil starvation is mainly a problem for the FE if you accelerate or corner
hard. I'm not sure whether it would be a problem in a pickup, as they are
more massive than a Fairlane or Mustang, and so I sorta doubt they hit the
same kind of g-forges which readily uncover the oil screen in the smaller
cars.
If I had that motor in a pickup, and didn't have a Milodon pan and windage
tray under it, then I'd definitely run a rear sump truck pan, truck pickup,
and truck mainstud to support the pickup. I'd also run a windage tray, but
then I don't drive a truck, and really don't know what I'd do.
As for the six quarts, i don't think you can even think of running that much
oil without a windage tray, unless you are willing to deal with excessive
cylinder wall splash, and the occasional smoke that goes with it when things
really get churning.
As always, just my bad advice,
Shoe.
|
| | | RE: oil mods 428 -- Mark, 01/15/2001
Dave, who sells windage trays for FE's? I've looked but have'nt found one. Also, I've seen 9 qt pans from Milodin, but no 7's. Again, any ideas? Thanks, Mark |
| | | | RE: oil mods 428 -- Bill Krueger, 01/16/2001
My 73 F-100 360 with towing pkg had 6qt pan. |
| | | | RE: oil mods 428 -- salid, 01/16/2001
Comp Cams in Colorado sell a windage tray and a weld on scrapper. |
| | | | RE: oil mods 428 -- Dave Shoe, 01/16/2001
Summit had my 7-qt Milodon T-pans and pickups in stock each time I called. Don't have part # off hand, but Summit and Jegs should be able to help you find one easily. My last windage tray came from the Motorsports catalog, back when they still supported the FE. Now, ebay might be about the only place to find the stock trays.
Canton makes a highly-regarded (in FE forums) tray for a couple bucks more - I've never seen one. I'm not yet aware of other types, except the Comp Cams one just mentioned in another post.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: oil mods 428 -- doc, 01/17/2001
Thank's for the response SHOE.I'll save the synthetic for the race track.Any suggestion on where to buy a resonably priced windage tray. If I use a tray,would the original front car pan be a good choice?On hard acceleration is there a way know if your suckin' air? doc |
| | RE: oil mods 428 -- Dave Shoe, 01/17/2001
It's me again doc. I've got more bad advise.
By the way, my previous post to you was intended as a response for questions you asked in the other nearby Milodon thread, but it wouldn't post there for some reason, so I stuck it here to keep from losing it. It's still pretty much the same thread, and I figure you recognize that.
As for restricting the heads and restricting the lifter galleys, these are different animals, and one does not really relate to the other.
Solid or hydraulic, with that oil pump you do wanna restrict oil heading up to the pedestals because heads tend to drain oil back downstairs rather slowly. You also wanna be running a reinforced oil pump drive shaft. With a high-flow pump, lots of oil can puddle upstairs when you don't want it to. Lifter clatter in hard corners is one symptom the oil is not where you need it, billowing smoke out the exhaust for a few seconds after a hard romp is another that suggests your rearmost valve stems are being submerged in oil. You can easily restrict the heads next time the valve covers are off, so it's no big deal.
As for that non-RPM intake: What were you thinking?!? Hey, fun is the main thing. At least you know you can improve things (even on a heavy pickup truck) with a quick manifold swap (the carb is a good one for ya, though a step up in CFM AFTER you get a breathing intake wouldn't hurt a thing).
JMO,
Shoe. |
| | | RE: oil mods 428 -- doc, 01/17/2001
SHOE, the reinforced shaft is in there.You hit the nail on the head,with the rear valve stems looking like submarines!! I've noticed the same problem on cold start-up.I recently pull my intake.All the valves have oil buildup on them.(the heads and the motor are both fresh.) Will restrictors also help this problem?Do I have to tap & screw in the restrictors?Do they just drop in?(The valve covers are off.) Is the Performer non-rpm manifold really suffocating me? What carb/man setup would make this 428 breath hard & heavy!!! DOC I would like to thank EVERYONE FOR ALL THE GREAT RESPONSE |
|  | Totally Confused -- John, 01/17/2001
All the talk about oil systems for the FE has me completely confused. Besides the common mods of flaring and enlarging oil passages and restricting the heads, most prople recommend 0.0025 bearing clearances with 20W50 oil, a M57HV pump and Milodon oil pan. But some people are running a stock oil pump with 5W30 Synthetic and the same claearances.
My problem is main bearing oil starvation on cold start-up and also during hard acceleration when warm.
Doesn't a HV pump and thick oil add to the oil starvation problem, by circulating oil too quickly and slowing oil drainback?
But, doesn't a stock pump and thin oil cause a problem with 0.0025" bearing clearances which are greater than stock limits?
This oil system seems incredibly touchy with these engines, and the oil starvation problem seems a common one. But many of you out there never seem to have a problem despite the differrent methods you have used.
What is the story here? I'm totally confused! |
| Speed Vision show -- RC Moser, 01/11/2001
Anybody been watching Speed Vision Muscle Cars show this month. Have a good show on Fords of the 50s, 60, early 70s. Alot of NASCAR stuff. Good show about the FE's and the shotgun hemi. Of course I liked the black fairlane with the 427 hood and the torque thrust wheels. WOW!! RC |
| | RE: Speed Vision show -- Don V, 01/11/2001
The channel is great. I have participated in the PSMCDR shoutouts for the last 4 yrs and American Muscle car on speedvision has featured many Fords on there half hour segments. It is still neat to see the car I own being featured at the drags.Sure beats those dusty car show trophies in the basement. |
| | Speed Vision show -- Orin, 01/12/2001
I have to watch it at my girl frind's place because my cable company doesn't carry it. The only problem is because it is her house she also gets to control the remote (I feel so naked when that happens.), which means that after about 45 minutes we're back to the House and Garden Channel, or some ugly-assed cooking show.
But on the other hand . . . :-)!!! |
| Milodon Pans - part 2 -- Mike McQuesten, 01/10/2001
John's recent question(s) about oiling and Milodon pans have prompted me to ask something. First though, I'd like to thank Dave Shore for all his excellent advice and responses to everyones' FE concerns. He responds intelligently, humorously and nicely.
My concern is this, I have a '63 427 done on the engine stand. It's built to look like a '60 352HP, i.e., correct '60HP Harmonic balancer & unique stamped steel timing cover; original '60 HP intake and Holley carb. Even the heads are COAE-D. Other than the cross bolts the only external indication that the engine isn't an original '52HP, the Milodon 7 qt. pan. The main bolts are ARP as are the rod bolts and head bolts. I ran into a problem with the rear main bolts interfering with the pan. I am running a new Ford windage tray with the required two pan gaskets. That alone didn't provide the needed clearance. So I carefully added pan gaskets using sealer sparingly between each gasket. I would install a gasket, then the pan and seal all pan bolts to apply some tourque to each gasket. So I took a few eveings to do this. I think it was with the third gasket on top to the outside windage tray gasket that it seemed there was clearance at the back. Sealer was slightly oozing out. The pick up tube/screen I'm using is the correct one for the Milodon pan.
What do you think? Should this be okay? I don't want a leaker.
I've primed the engine and all looks fine. BTW, this will be installed in my '60 documented 352HP/360 horse Sunliner.
Thanks. These questions on oiling and pans got me to thinking.
Mike |
| 390 block #'s -- Anthony, 01/10/2001
I have a 67 S-code mustang that has a "352" for a block number. Can anyone tell me what the 352 means, and if it is in fact a 390ci? |
| | RE: 390 block #'s -- Jim D, 01/10/2001
"352" was cast into most FE blocks (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, 428). If it is a 390 it will have 4.05" bores and 3.78" stroke. |
| | | RE: 390 block #'s -- ROBBY PARHAM, 01/13/2001
I have a friend that has an FE block but we dont have a clue to what it is? It has special cast under the intake in the lifter valley,and some letters but they dont look like casting numbers. We are thinking it to be maybe a 406 or a 390 Hp? If you can help we need it. |
| | Check the block again for a cast ID #, along the side [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/10/2001
n/m |
| Milodon Oil Pans -- John, 01/09/2001
Many have you have had input, or at least read my problems with low oil pressure with my 428. Worn main bearings due to oil starvation turned out to be the problem (as best as can be determined). With solid lifters (hyd lifter oil galleries blocked off) and restrictors in the heads, oil pump sucking air under hard acceleration and possibly during cold start also, appears to be the problem. The FE heads don't drain well either, as the head bolts partially obstruct the drainback holes. Milodon has an interesting looking wet sump, P/N 31650 which I am considering, but it says for use with a Melling M83HV vs the typical M57HV. I have a few questions for any of you out there who may have some experience with these parts.
1/ Anyone use this pan, and was it a success?
2/ Does anyone think it will be a significant improvement over my cast aluminum Tony Branda 6 qt plus filter T-Type pan (the Milodon is a 7 qt plus filter pan advertising extra baffles for violent turns, acceleration and de-acceleration)
3/ What is the difference between a M57HV and a M83HV? Does the pressure relief valve give the same max pressure for both pumps. Do both pumps have the same flow rate?
4/ Wouldn't a rear or full length pan be better? Who makes one other than Ford for their Vans?(must require a hell of a long pick-up tube!)
5/ My FPP rocker Stands do not allow the use of the sheet metal baffles originally installed to aid oil drainback and keep the valve guides from flooding. Do I really need the baffles? (obviously FPP doesn't use them for their own vehicles)
6/ I plan on using 20W50 with bearing clearances around 0.0025". Won't this oil, when cold, prove so thick, that drainback could be compromised to the point where the pan is sucked dry by the pump? (probably not a problem in sunny California, but it may be up here in Canada)
Thank-you for your inputs. |
| | RE: Milodon Oil Pans -- Dave Shoe, 01/10/2001
1) I use the Milodon pan (steel) and like it a lot. I don't run aluminum pans because I would tend to shatter them in rough driving, but they do look cool. The Milodon is baffled and a baffled T-pan, in my opinion, is the NUMERO UNO oiling upgrade for any front-sump performance FE. If you forget all the other upgrades (most are wimpy, anyway) DO GET A GOOD PAN. Not only will the bearings last longer, but that irritating lifter clacking which pops up during hard fast corners goes away, too. There is a REASON why the later 428CJ dipstick was renotched by Ford to indicate "full" at six quarts when other FEs are notched for five - Ford believes that overfilling the stock pan beats replacing a blown motor under warrantee. There is also a reason the CJ got a windage tray, and it has less to do with "windage performance" and more to do with the entire contents of the front sump pan getting tossed into the crankshaft and splattered all over Gods creation (inside the crankcase of course, which is Godlike, in itself) when dragracing. Front sumps suck, but adding a performance pan beats ripping out the stock suspension.
4) Rear pans from pick-ups are better than car pans - got a torch? Rear pans do have problems during hard braking, but you probably don't have the carb wide open when your foot is planted on the brake, so it's a little less damaging. Baffled T-pans buy you time before emptying the sump, front or rear. Ford rear sumps have a long pick-up tube and one oddball maincap bolt for supporting the long tube.
5) Keep the drip rails - they help prevent smoking and valve stem deposits. Not all rocker drip rails are created equal, though Ford tried to make them so. Some drip rails interfere very slightly in the lower corners of FPP pedestals, causing the rails to get lightly pressed against the valve springs. Some trays just happen to miss the pedestals completely. If you don't have a set of the second type in your stash somewhere, there is an easy fix. Notice that, with drip rails removed and FPP pedestals installed on the head, the rectangular FPP pedestals are slightly larger than the round head bosses they perch atop. Simply chamfer an offending corner off the FPP pedestals so they still make full contact with the round head boss - meaning you retain full strength of the pedestals. Now they will clear any drip rail that I've ever seen come from Ford, no matter how worn out the die stamp tooling was. You might want to check with Ron to see what this does to the pedestal warrantee.
6) The "funnel effect" is not good for your motor (sucking air due to frozen oil in pan) - besides, your stock starter doesn't have the torque to crank the motor fast enough to fire when it's busy pumping tar. Use pure synthetic oil (no blends) in the sub-zero, and check the "Pour Point" specs. Note that 20w50, 15w50, and even lighter full-synthetics can have horrible pour points. Winter demands 5w50 Mobil1/Amzoil, or 5w30 Mobil1/Amzoil when really cold (the 5w30 pour point specs look great). I don't like the way the other synthetic manufacturers specs look when things get really cold and I've never used Amzoil. B.T.W: Oil flows poorly when it's within 30 degrees of the specified "pour point".
JMO,
Shoe.
|
| | | RE: Milodon Oil Pans -- doc, 01/12/2001
6quarts instread of 5? My block is a 66 428 plain,will adding an extra quart help reduce the risk of oil starvation? Also I've heard many recomendations on oil brands,conventional vs synthetic.What is best to run in my FE? My motor has 1500miles on rebuild,using 10/40 pensoil, but considering Mobil 1. What weight? My block was originaly in a Galaxy,it has a front pan,I am using it because it has a baffle. The motor is in my 70 pick up now.I still have the trucks rear pan off the 360,which shoud I use?I obviosly have alot to learn about FE's,reading some of the technical stuff you guys write assures me of this!! HELP! doc
|
| | RE: Milodon Oil Pans -- Barry, 01/10/2001
I have used the Milodon pan for many years with good success. That does not mean that it is any better than your existing pan - it just means that is has worked for me. The baffles in the Milodon part are very minor. I also use a stock windage tray, modified to clear a Moroso pump pickup. I use a standard - not high volume - oil pump. There is no value in excessive oil pressure. As long as you keep bearing clearances between .0023-.0027, and use good machining practices you'll be OK (check lifter bore and cam bearing clearances - these engines are OLD). Your problem may have been pump to block or pickup to pump air leakaage. The stock drainbacks are adequate. I run 5W-30 Mobil 1.
Oh, by the way, the car has a 452 inch stroker with Edelbrock heads and a solid roller cam. Performance is 10.91@122 MPH, in a 3600+ pound '69 Torino. Its been running like this for over 8 years...no problems and hundreds of passes. |
| | | RE: Milodon Oil Pans -- Rusty Johnson, 01/14/2001
I have used the Milodon pan (steel) on serveral engines w/ no problems. I agree with the other guy that the extra oil pressure does not do much for you. I race a cobrajet Mustang stocker and have gone exclusively to the stock 390 style oilpump to reduce oil pressure. I prefer about 45 to 50 psi when the oil is hot. I user 5w30 mobil synthetic with a wopping 0.0035 rod bearing clearance. I turn these motors 7200rpm in the lights and have never experienced a bearing problem. Another thing I do is restict the oil to the top of the engine by threading and pluging the hole under the oiling stand. I user a plug with a 0.060 hole to restrict oil. This year I'm using bronze bushed stock rockers and plan on restricting the oil even further.
Rusty |
| | | RE: Milodon Oil Pans -- Mark, 01/15/2001
Barry, wow, a 452 stroker. Sounds real fun. Is this a stroked and slightly over bored 427? How much oil pressure do you usually have with the standard pump? This is a fantastic forum. I have just recently found this and have told many about it already. I am just getting my 68 390 GT Formal on the road this spring sporting new 1991 Ford Rio Red, and a modified 390 GT, and what I've read and learned in the last few weeks has hepled a lot. Hope to find the cash for a new 3.70 gear set and under overdrive unit to top it off. Thanks, Mark |
| | Milodon Recommended Oil Pump -- John, 01/11/2001
Back again with another question. Anybody have any experience with the Melling M83HV pump? The following is my e-mail to Melling and their response. I'm a little unclear by what Melling means by "sit farther down in the pan" and "I don't think this would fit very well" Would I need a longer intermediate driveshaft? I have a FPP shaft now that is 5/16 on one end and 1/4 on the other, but it is standard length. This M83HV pump sounds like excessively High Volume to me if the georotor is 2" taller than the M57HV. Check the difference in hot idle pressure as per the Melling response below. Any input would be appreciated.
To: melling@voyager.net <melling@voyager.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: M83HV vs M57HV
>Dear Sirs;
>
>I am planning on procuring a Milodon Oil Pan, P/N 31650, for my Ford
>FE428. I have always used a M57HV pump in these engines, but Milodon
>recomends a Melling M83HV with their pickup (pump plus pick-up under
>Milodon P/N 18830). I cannot find either the M57HV or M83HV in your
>on-line catalog. Can you please tell me about the M83HV? Is it
>essentially the same as the M57HV in terms of relief valve pressure and
>flow rate? What is the difference?
>
>Thank-you.
>
>John Martin
>Nova Scotia
>Canada
>
>
The M-57HV takes a 1/4 intermediate drive shaft
The M-83HV takes a 5/16 intermediate drive shaft
The M-83HV is 2" taller and would sit farther down in the pan. I don't
think this would fit very well.
The pressure at idle is: M-57HV 32 psi / M-83HV 42 psi
At by-pass is: M-57HV 75 psi / M-83HV 76 psi
Paul Hauglie
Melling Engine Parts
|
| Fe forum -- ANDY, 01/09/2001
I read this forum and the other at network 54. Suddenly I cant post at N54 anymore , it wants a login.
As I do my browsing from work I am not keen to establish a login. Why has this happened? And do I have anything to fear by creating a login? Please help! |
| 70 mach 1 rear shocks -- Ronnie Dingus, 01/08/2001
I just bought a R-code 70 mach 1 and it has rear staggered shocks but the transmission is an automatic. I was told that it was an original 4 speed car. The door data plate is gone and I was wondering if the rear staggered shocks was an accurate indication if the car is a true 4 speed car. Any help will be appreciated. |
| | Since those plates are a fairly easy bolt-in, I say no. [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/08/2001
n/m |
| | RE: 70 mach 1 rear shocks -- Jim K, 01/09/2001
The shock that is staggered is in front of the axle housing. This means the upper mount of the shock in the chassis/body has a different mounting hole. Inside the car, behind the rear seat is a rectangle box where the access hole to this shock is. I'm not sure if this is in all Mustangs or only the staggered shock ones, I only know its in mine which is a 70 4-speed SCJ. |
| | RE: 70 mach 1 rear shocks -- Sam, 01/09/2001
Ronnie,
There are several other things you can check. Look to see if there is any evidence of the different clutch assemblies having been removed (i.e.- Z-Bar mounting brackets, clutch pedal mounting brackets, etc...). Also, if the car still has the original carb and distributor, their parts #'s can also tell if your car is an original 4-speed. Considering the cost of original parts, it's unlikely that the previous owner would have replaced these items also. The carb # should have a manual choke and an "-AA" suffix (non A/C) and the ditributor should have a "-C" suffix. One positive way of finding out is to get your original invoice, if available, from one of the contacts available on this site under "Info Resources". Another is to contact Kevin Marti of Marti Auto Works for a complete rundown on your specific car, for a very reasonable charge.
Good Luck,
Sam
1970 "Q" code 4-speed Mach 1
|
| 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/08/2001
Appreciate it if anyone could mail me a picture of the a/c setup for 1970 428CJ. The pulleys have been removed from my engine and I want to replace them for the restoration
Thanks
Leon |
| | Not a common set-up, Leon. I'll ask around. [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/08/2001
n/m |
| | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Mark, 01/08/2001
Leon, I have a 428 67 T-Bird with A/C. If you like I could send you some pics in a day or two. Yea, I know, the bird bay is lots bigger. I'm thinking that the pulley and idler arrangement might be close, maybe a hint or two. Let me know. |
| | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/09/2001
Mark
Thanks. I'd appreciate having a look at the pic. I don't think they would have changed too much, but it is Ford :-)
Thanks
Leon |
| | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Tim, 01/09/2001
The 69 CJ Cougar set-up should be the same. Do you need a more detailed pic? Tell me what you need.
 |
| | | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/09/2001
Tim
I need a picture of the fron of the engine showing the location of the a/c idler pulleys and the belt path.
Thanks
Leon |
| | | | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Tim, 01/09/2001
I'll take some more pics tomorrow and send them directly to you. |
| | | | | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/09/2001
Tim. Thanks. Appreciate yor help. Leon |
| | | | | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- john, 01/10/2001
I could use those pictures too.
John |
| | | | | | | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Rick Thompson, 01/10/2001
I could use them also. Can you e-mail them to me? Thanks |
| | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/10/2001
Tim
Thanks. great set of pictures
Regards
Leon |
| | | RE: 428 a/c detail Pictures Received Thanks -- Leon Bray, 01/10/2001
Thanks Tim |
| | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Rick Thompson, 01/11/2001
Anyone have an extra idler pulley for a 70 428 A/C setup. Apparently, there are two idlers. I need the one below the compressor, which is hardly visible. Tim's pictures were excellent and show this pulley. Thanks. |
| | | RE: 428 a/c detail -- Leon Bray, 01/11/2001
Rick
I noticed that pulleys are listed in online cataloge from Mansfield Mustang (www.mansfieldmustang.com)
Leon |
|