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 | Valve cover selection help needed -- Dale, 12/27/2000
I've got FPA end stands and their dowel kit on my EDE heads, having trouble finding valve covers to clear both. All help appreciated. PS It's going into a '67 Fairlane with power brakes, very limited clearance between booster and valve cover. |
|  | RE: Valve cover selection help needed -- Louie, 12/27/2000
Pentroof will probably do it, but you might have to get the ballpeen out for the booster. |
 | FE vs. Windsor -- Stanley Superior, 12/27/2000
There seems to be this bitterness about how the FE raced in NASCAR with the stock block,and the Windsor did not. True,Ford raced with the stock FE 427 blocks in NASCAR,but do you know why? because it was ALL THEY HAD!!! There was no such thing as Ford Motorsport back in those days,they did not have race specific blocks in the mid 60's! Alot of people say only the FE raced and won with production line blocks,but they are skipping the 70's! If the Windsor was the only thing that Ford would have had to do battle with,they would have still done it! They would have made it work and survive,just like they did to the FE. The FE was a total failure on the race tracks in the very early days of its racing career,so it was nurtured and developed by the engineers to last through a 500 mile race. You dont think they would have done the same thing with the Windsor if it was the only thing they had at the time? If you dont think that,then you are ignorant. Fast forward into the 70's--the 351 Cleveland,a production line engine,just like the FE,was chosen to carry the Ford name into racing. Why the Cleveland and not the Windsor? Airflow! The Cleveland heads had the capacity to move alot of air,the Windsor heads did not,very simple! Just like the FE's,the small blocks had a rough time in the early years of competition,and Ford was running stock block Clevelands,too! So why didnt Ford chose to run a Windsor? Because they had the Cleveland! It was a better design,it had a lighter rotating mass,compared to the Windsor. It had a slightly shorter deck than a Windsor. It already had performance parts available for it on the market. The Cleveland heads were far superior to any Windsor heads. The Cleveland heads were far superior to any FE wedge head. The Cleveland only needed a few minor mods to the oiling system,the FE needed many mods to its oiling system,even the 427 side oilers still needed alot of oiling mods. The Windsor was just never taken seriously by the factory or the aftermarket in the 70's. The Cleveland was the star child of those times. |
|  | RE: FE vs. Windsor vs. Flathead! -- RC Moser, 12/27/2000
I'd say each time a new design came along they improved what was wrong with the old design. That's called progress. I don't think anybody will dispute that. After all if they didn't correct problems we would still be running flatheads! Which an't a bad motor, just a old design. Have you ever hear a 50 Merc or shoebox with a warmed over flathead with duel steel packs, sweetest sound I've ever heard. So what's the point you are tring to make? Some like Flatheads, an't nothing wrong with that. Some like FE's an't nothing wrong with that. Some like 385 series, an't nothing wrong with that. And SOME like SB's and windsors and their an't nothing wrong with that. So why try to push your assumptions on others. It's all about and era of time each person was in and what they consider neat and fast. ""NOTE KEY WORD "THEY" "" You have to respect that. I disagree about FORD being a total failure, every Car maker had failures and still do, some of which is driver error, crew member mistakes, and material failure. This still happens today and I really don't think you can compare todays NASCARS of the early days when you got a car and knocked the windows out, put in some roll bars in and called it a race car, and your team was your brother, dad, or uncle and your budget was about 300 bucks and you still had to race the 500 miles. |
| |  | Couldn't have said it better RC. -- torinodriver, 12/27/2000
n/m |
|  | RE: FE vs. Windsor -- dj, 12/27/2000
Design and development of the 427 side oiler was due to oiling problems the NASCAR teams were having with the standard 427s. It was up to the Ford factory to address the problems, and the 427 side oiler was their answer. |
| ![Collapse <a href=../ForumFE/reply.aspx?ID=3871&Reply=3863><img src=../images/reply.png width=30 height=10></a> <b>RE: FE vs. Windsor</b> -- <font color=#0000ff>RSR, <i>12/27/2000</i></font><br /><blockquote>[deleted by Mr F] </blockquote>](/WebResource.axd?d=vG1pKMaqyV2y6301aKyltu8N0zbCTkKvzch_06o7SYnww5FJPtV8y82MHY1UlqQO7urzKilMYHwhlom9rY-8CcvpjZGBESYtoRT7no7e9ajVKsnuo4gqVz6IvG7o-gIZ0&t=637814653746327080) | RE: FE vs. Windsor -- RSR, 12/27/2000
[deleted by Mr F] |
| |  | No purely personal attacks. Argue the merits or don't post. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/27/2000
n/m |
|  | Please do research before shooting off mouth! -- Alan, 12/27/2000
You are correct, Ford didn't have Motorsport back then. they had Total Performance! Don't you EVER read anything about Ford racing history.They probably even made some stuff for precious Windsors if you bothered to check. |
| |  | RE: Please do research before shooting off mouth! -- Stanley Superior, 12/27/2000
Alan and RC should read the message again before trying to push THEIR opinions off onto me,or anyone else! They obviously dont understand a word of what I said. If I have to spell it out for you,then ok,its like this,if Ford only had the Windsor back in the early 60's,then they would have still raced it. They would have had to make do,with what they got. Im not saying that Ford was a failure,Im saying that the early FE race engines were failures until they were improved to eliminate the problems. In the 50's,they didnt have the FE,until 58-59,but it wasnt a race bred engine right from the start,so they were using Y-blocks,why? because its all they had! My argument was in response to some clown saying "Stanley,you tell me how many stock block Windsors ever won a Nascar race". None is the answer,because they never raced with one. But that dont mean that they would not have won anything if they did run one! The Windsor was never given the chance from the factory,thats why it never won. |
| | |  | RE: Please do research before shooting off mouth! -- RC Moser, 12/27/2000
I still say what's the point! you can't compare flatheads with Y blocks or Y blocks to FE's and so on. I wonder how many racers ran Y blocks after the FE was introduced? You can't compare something that never raced. Now if was to put the same engines in the same chassis built the same why then you might be able to establish a base line. No, a desk top dyno is not real world. So you have your opinion and I have mine, don't look like I'm going to change mine or your going to change yours. And everybody else is entitled to their opinion, right. |
| | |  | Better reread my post -- Alan, 12/27/2000
All I was doing was correcting you about not having a Motorsport division, which they clearly did i.e. Total Performance. I did not address any other part of your comment. This is not an opinion, it is historical fact! The Total Performance division of the '60s and early '70s make the current Motorsport division look like small potatos. |
| | |  | RE: Please do research before shooting off mouth! -- Mark, 12/27/2000
My argument was in response to
How can you be in response to anything when it was YOU that started the thread? |
| | | |  | Good point. Top-level posts are usually new discussions. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/27/2000
n/m |
| | |  | Stanley finally admits the truth about the Windsor -- 'Some clown', 12/27/2000
As I am the 'clown' that you are referring to, I will reply to your ramblings. In this post (http://jcoconsulting.com/forumfe/reply.aspx?ID=3792&Reply=3773) you inferred that the Windsor was the 'royalty' of NASCAR. "Ever since NASCAR mandated small blocks for racing,Fords have won more races with small block power than they ever did with FE power,thus making the "royalty" the small block (windsor). "
I replied with this post: (http://jcoconsulting.com/forumfe/reply.aspx?ID=3793&Reply=3773) 'I am curious; with your wealth of 'fact', how many NASCAR titles were with won with a Windsor block (not based on, but a true Windsor block)? Now, write down that number. Next, write down how many NASCAR titles were won with a true FE block. Write down that number. Do you see a bigger number in the FE column? Tried to make it easy for you.'
I am amazed that you finally would admit the the Windsor was/is not capable of the performance/endurance required of NASCAR by the following post: 'My argument was in response to some clown saying "Stanley, you tell me how many stock block Windsors ever won a Nascar race". None is the answer,because they never raced with one.' I am sure that if Ford thought that the Windsor had what it takes to win NASCAR, they would have raced one.
It is good to see your humility come through and your admittance that the Windsor isn't all you make it up to be. It's a good engine; it just isn't NASCAR quality. Mr. F- I do consider being called a 'clown' a personal attack and would like to see you put 'Stanley' in the corner for timeout. Or maybe just not let him have recess. |
| | | |  | RE: Stanley finally admits the truth about the Windsor -- Stanley Superior, 12/28/2000
Wrong again! I am in no way "admitting" that a stock block Windsor cannot survive a NASCAR race,because it can! A Windsor will take just as much punishment as a 427. Esspecially in 60's style race trim,but a FE motor cannot survive a NASCAR race in the current times,i.e.2000! You dont know half of what you think you do,did you know the 289 is also of a Windsor type design? Did you know they raced in LeMans for 24 hrs? Did you know they actually survived such a grueling race,and won? Obviously you dont know these things. Sure,the 427 was also a winner at LeMans,but it was the "little Windsor",that paved the way for the 427 to compete. Yes a stock production block Windsor is capable of surviving a NASCAR race. But they never raced with one,thats like abortion,kill the child before he ever has a chance to live! Ford pulled the plug on alot of diverse programs before they ever had their day in the light. So why do still insist that only an FE is capable of winning and surviving a NASCAR race? A Windsor is every bit the equal to an FE,if not more so! |
| | | | |  | RE: Stanley finally admits the truth about the Windsor -- 406Custom300, 12/28/2000
If frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butt on the ground when they jump too, lol. |
| | | | |  | RE: Stanley finally admits the truth about the Windsor -- Louie, 12/28/2000
"did you know the 289 is also of a Windsor type design? "
Oh, are you speaking of the 90 degree V8 design. I guess that covers Chevies, Ponchos, DCP,... Next you'll be trying to convince everyone that the Windsor was the prototype for all V8's.
You're a legend in your own mind!
|
|  | Motorsports/SVA dates to ~'64 & 289 race-only blocks to ~'66. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/27/2000
n/m |
|  | RE: FE vs. Windsor -- Brian, 12/27/2000
Sounds like speculation on your part. I think? Stanley your the one making some very ignorant statments. And last Ford had several programs, at the time Ford Muscle Parts was one, HM another. |
| |  | RE: FE vs. Windsor -- Pig Iron, 12/27/2000
I have a friend in the auto restoration business. His answer to the people who demand that a body isn't repaired correctly unless lead is used on pre 1950 cars, " If the oldtimers would of had a choice between lead or bondo, they would have used bondo". The oldtimers used the best that they had. The reason for this FE chat room is for those who want to discuss FE's, not what engine is better or worse. If someone wants to talk about the merits of another engine you don't have to respond. |
|  | "All they had"?? -- DMA, 12/28/2000
Are all the history books wrong when they state that the small block 221 - 289 arrived around '62 - '63?? If so Ford most assuredly had a "choice" stanley!!! The reason Ford chose the FE was because that's all they needed NOT "all they had". The small block carried the Ford name at Indy, did a commendable job, albeit an engine as far removed fr stock as stanley's 408 windsor. Racing FE's on the other hand much more closely resembled their production cousins and in fact could be duplicated by customers out of Ford's "Muscle Parts" bins. From reading the several posts stanley writes I get the distinct impression that were we enjoying internet technology in the '40's - '50's stanley would be argueing the merits of the steam engine. HEY!! Wasn't there a "Stanley Steamer" car way back when??? I might be on to something here.............. |
| |  | Hey stanley Get Your Facts right -- ANT, 12/29/2000
Hey Stanley, You said that ford raced FE's because that's all they had and they didn't have some special division like Ford motorsport or Ford racing. Well actually ford put a lot af money into developing the race 427's. It was important job that attracted customers. That job just couldn't be handled by some small budget parts shop built next to the dealership. "Ford", not some extra division for small time enthusiast like yourself Stanley but "Ford" itself invested money to win races. They funded the race teams and built the parts because it was important to their image. They had to have a good engine. They also had the power to make major modifictions and come up with completely new parts, unlike The present Ford racing division that makes bolt on parts and stronger blocks and stuff. The can not design a complete new engine, like Ford itself did back in the 60's when they had a reputation to keep. Dont tell me that the off the shelf engines are better the factory made race engines. These new engines are simply bought from ford and built with other parts and raced. This is all done by the funding of a company like kmart and tide and not Ford itself. If these companies could make their own engines they would do the same how ford did in the 60's with it's race built 427 side oiler. With all that money, Ford came up with exotic engines like the 427 sohc but not the 351 windsor. Simply put, The 427 Fe was built by ford to race, The 351 windsor (your hero) was later taken by race teams and adapted to race(because thats all they had). |
|  | RE: FE vs. Windsor -- s-code, 01/01/2001
Ya know, after reading some of Stanleys post, it has come to mind that I think he could cause a riot at a monestary. Most important to us is that this is an FE forum, and he feels the need to make himself feel better by bashing them with his bantor about X vs. Y and so forth. someone correct me if I am wrong, but the point is we all love Fords, and in this forum in particular we love FE's. So, Mr. F, is there any way you could create Stanley a Windsor Forum, or Small Block Forum so he could possible stop annoying the piss out of the rest of us? Thanks for the consideration. |
 | oiling systems -- T1M, 12/26/2000
I've heard some talk about altering the flow of oil in engines. I dont' know much about engines period so just out of curiosity, how does restricting certain oil passages help the engine? And in what way does it help? It seems kind of risky to me as I hear alot of posts of people saying they have oil pressure that's too high because they blocked the oil going to the lifters or rocker arms. Confused. Thanks for any help |
 | Msg for Mr. F. -- Will, 12/26/2000
Sorry about the post instead of e-mail. My e-mail link is messed up right now. I can use e-mail. I just can't send it via a link. :-(
I just got off the phone with you. I'm looking for what I believe is called the dog-leg bracket for a 428 with smog. This bracket is S-shaped with a hole in one end and a slot in the other. It is used when mounting the alternator low to make room for the smog pump higher. I don't need the smog pump brackets. I just need the S-bracket.
I'll be leaving town today at around 3:00pm, and I won't be back until Jan 1 or 2, so there's no hurry. Also, this bracket isn't super critical. I just want it so I don't have to move the alternator to remove the valve cover.
thx, wk. |
 | Yet another engin I.D attempt -- Justin, 12/26/2000
ok, heres my predicament, ive got a 76' F-250, c-6 two wheel drive. On the driver side just under the head are the numbers 352, shes a 4-v, and all other numbers are gone, no othe numbers casted on block, the intake manofold is unreadable. not much to go on and you guys are all older fe buffs but any help would be kool P.S the vin suggests it's a 360, hope not , but ive been told shes a 390 by others...? |
 | Mr F you stumped me on the PIs variations over tim -- Robert, 12/24/2000
The two PIs I have a C6 and C7 have no differences that Ive noticed. I have a nice sidewinder and it seems to have a very uncommon weak lettering as contrasted to the std Ford Product.I doubt the C9 date as it obviously a 427 Manifold and by 69 Ford had other things on the drawing board for Performance-------429CJ SCJs Boss 9s. Perhaps a non Fomoco plant source.The Manifold while stock has very large ports that even dwarf a CJs yet pale in comparison to the High Riser ..........I believe they are Medium Riser though I never had a MR anything in hand despite owning everything from Boss 9s to 427SOs. The outstanding characteristic of the Sidewinder is the large volume around the high end of the runners sort of like a HR. Personelly I believe that velocity is varried drasticly and performance may be hurt accordingly. |
 | Best wishes to all for a joyous holiday. :-) (card att'd.) -- Mr F, 12/24/2000
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|  | RE: Best wishes to all for a joyous holiday. :-) (card att'd.) -- Dan Bell, 12/24/2000
To you and yours Mr F,have a grand ole time |
|  | RE: Best wishes to all for a joyous holiday. :-) -- Neppy, 12/25/2000
Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Tiptop Kwanza and a Splendid New Year to all. Everybody stay safe and healthy.
What exactly is ther proper way to wish someone a good Kwanza? |
|  | Merry Christmas to all. -- Will, 12/26/2000
Thanks for the forum Mr. F. We all appreciate how you run things. |
 | C7AE-F intake -- Jeff H., 12/24/2000
I have an aluminum FE intake that I am trying to ID. The part number is C7AE-9425-F. I asked this same question about a month ago and the general consensus was that it is a 428PI part. What is wierd is that it has an "open" upper plenum(i.e. no holes/dividers) typical of higher performance intakes. Just today I ran accross a reference(FORD high performance parts identifier)that tags a C7AE-F as 427 "sidewinder" intake. Can somebody tell me what is special(if anything) about a 427 sidewinder intake? Is that what I have?
 |
|  | RE: C7AE-F intake -- Will, 12/24/2000
The sidewinder has the carb offset towards the drivers side. It is supposed to even out runner lengths or something like that.
I think it was something like 1 or 2 inches offset, so it's pretty noticable. |
|  | PI intake -- Ed Foral, 12/24/2000
You have a PI intake
Ed |
| |  | Ed's right. PI castings vary somewhat, from first to last. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/24/2000
n/m |
|  | Off-hand, I believe the Sidewinders wear a 'C9-' eng. ID [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/24/2000
n/m |
|  | Sidewinder Pic -- Ed Foral, 12/24/2000
Here is a pic of a Shelby version, but the Ford factory one looks pretty much identical without the Shelby script The Ford one I think has a C6 casting number
Ed
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 | Cam questions? -- bill white, 12/24/2000
I am just about ready to start my winter project, and am just gathering the last of the parts. I am rebuilding a 65 galaxie convertible 500xl. I have a factory AFX teardrop glass hood, and have the parts to upgrade the brakes and drop the car down 1 1/2 to 2". The car is a factory four speed(although I am still in the hunt for a toploader) For a powerplant I have decided to do a compromise and am going with a 390 +.60 over, It has a steel 427 crank (C4AE-B)and I will be using the C5AE-B lemans rods. I will be using C3AE-C 406 heads that have small cc chambers, that should bump my Comp Ratio to a healthy 9.8/1 to 10.3 with the pistons I will be using. I will be running a factory tri-power. I have the factory 1965 427 headers. And am considering using the stock ajustable rockers(solid cam) even though I will be running a hydraulic with Rhoads lifters. MY QUESTION: I would like to run a pretty bumpy hydraulic cam and feel I can get away with a pretty good stick with the use of the rhoads, but have no idea which way to turn. I DO NOT WANT TO RUN A SOLID LIFTER CAM NOR A ROLLER CAM. The rear end I believe to be a 3.00-1 but will change over to a 3.50-1 or a 3.89-1. I plan on driving the car to events and being able to run the drags with it. I have some thoughts on caming but thought I would throw this up for discussion. Does anybody have any ideas on cams and rear end ratios, or does anybody have any real world experience they would like to throw out. AGAIN, must be hydraulic, I don't mind a lope,(healthy or otherwise,as a fact would prefer a healthy bump), must be streetable enough to not have to "launch" at stoplights and use power brakes(idle under 1000 :o) ). AND must be able to propel a big galaxie down the 1/4 in respectable times. |
|  | RE: Cam questions? -- mark, 12/25/2000
I would be cautious with the Rhoads lifters - they can slam the valves down fairly hard under partial duration conditions. Check out a post farther down in this site about a 428 buildup - uses Edelbrock heads and their Performer FE cam. Quite impressive numbers at streetable rpms. Probably as big as you'd want to go. 050 duration of 235 should be about right, or just a little less if any less. Lift you'd probably want to stay .550 max, range 525 to 550. Narrower LDA (OK with decent rod to stroke ratio and not a long stroke, which your motor is) down to 108 or 110 gives better midrange torque and a nice lumpy idle. That Edelbrock cam fits the bill pretty well. You've got a better rod to stroke ratio and a shorter stroke than the 428, so can go just a little narrower LDA to keep your rpms in streetable range with good mid rane torque. Other good ones are Lunati (check out their grind 06506, 07502 or 30505), they've done lots of work with FE engines, Erson (their grind 240221), Isky (grind 351271) or Comp Cams (268-AH10 or 270-AH10). Should do what you're looking for. They all list their specs on their websites. Oh, those Rhoads lifters also up your compression pressure at lower rpm (decreased duration, that's how they get better low end), so you'd have to watch your comp ratio to avoid detonation. If you want variable bleed lifters, check Crane - theirs don't slam the valves down like Rhoads. The newer cam profiles give you bettr low & mid range than older designs because of faster ramp acceleration rates (steeper ramps) so give the effect of variable duration lifters with the older style longer duration cams. |
 | 390 heads? -- Alex Campbell, 12/23/2000
Does anyone have flow #'s for 390 GT heads? Also, i picked up an early police interceptor 390 intake (single four bbl, cast iron) at a swap meet for $35 cdn. bucks. Because I Intend on putting my motor in a '67 fairlane and mantaining the sleeper look, should i keep this cool old piece or should i just get an edelbrock manifold and grind the edelbrock name off? |
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