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 | 352 modifications -- Sweeney, 04/07/2001
I've got a 352 that i'm thinking about having bored out to a 390. what options do i have as far as cylinder heads go? |
|  | RE: 352 modifications -- Dave Shoe, 04/07/2001
352 cylinder heads are the same as 390 cylinder heads.
You didn't mention the year, but there was an "emissions" redesign of the basic FE head in 1966 which caused the old "pre-emissions era" head to split into two new "emissions era" designs, and also a slight change in 1968 which consolidated the two new designs into one, and knowledge of these changes are critical in selecting headers and intake manifold, and they also help in choosing other items such as cam and carb. Note the 1966-later FE head also has features cast in which allow drilling bolts to mount Fairlane or Mustang exhaust manifolds.
Up until 1965, there was only type of head for any non-HP FE engine. The 332, 352, 361Edsel, and 390 all got the same head. The casting number may have changed from year to year, but the head didn't change. These heads are all great for non-Fairlane and non-Mustang applications.
Note that in '66-'67 Ford used the same two head castings on 352, 390, 390GT, 410, 428, and 428PI engines. The GT and PI motors just got stiffer springs.
In '68-later they had only one casting for all 360, 390, 390GT, 428, and 428PI engines. Again, the GT and PI got stiffer springs.
Note that the desirable 1966-67 head is the C6AE-R because it kept most of the '65-earlier flow characteristics, but it got bosses added to fit-up Fairlane/Mustang exhaust manifolds.
Shoe.
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 | Advance Curve for 427 dual point dis -- Joshua Carroll, 04/05/2001
I have a HP 390 with the stock HP cam that is the same as a stock 427 cam. I bought a Mallery dual point centrifical advance distributor and can not get the thing step up correctly. Can some one please email me the advance curve for a stock 427 dual point distributor so I can try to get the Mallery to match! I know I want an initial 12 degrees with a total of 38 degrees but I have no idea what the curve should look like. Thanks. The help is greatly appreciated! |
|  | RE: Advance Curve for 427 dual point dis -- Dave Shoe, 04/05/2001
Crank timing 8 deg BTDC.
Centrifugal advance. Set the test stand to 0 deg at 250 RPM and 0 inches vacuum.
650RPM: 2-1/4 to 4 deg advance, vac=0 750 RPM: 4 to 5-1/2 deg, vac=0 1000 RPM: 7-1/4 to 8-1/2 deg, vac=0 1600 RPM: 9-3/4 to 11 deg, vac=0 2000 RPM: 11-1/2 to 13 deg, vac=0
Max advance limit: 16 deg
From 1965 Ford shop manual, printed Sept 1964, which indicates it's for a 427LR.
Shoe. |
| |  | More than one advance curve for 427?!? -- Josh Carroll, 04/06/2001
Dave,
Thank you for taking the time to look that up for me. I am a little confused because I found a ford high performance book last night at the book store that spelled out the following advance curve for the dual point centrifical advance 427 distributor. 12 degrees initial
250rpm = 0 degrees 500rpm = 4.5 degrees 1000rpm = 10.5 derees 1500rpm = 12.5 degrees 2000rpm = 14.5 degrees
and a total of 38 degrees. Is there more than one advance curve for a 390HP cam / stock 427 cam? Anyone else have any thoughts or advice? The book I looked at also did not spec out the whole curve because they stopped at 2000rpm = 14.5 + initial = 12. That adds up to 26.5 degrees and they call for a total of 38 degrees? Again, any help is more than appreciated at this point! |
| | |  | RE: More than one advance curve for 427?!? -- Dave Shoe, 04/06/2001
I just checked my 1966 Ford shop manual (Aug 65 printing), and it lists the exact same info as the 1965 manual, but adds that the 427's 1966 distributor was a C5AF-12127-F - apparently unchanged from early 1965.
1961 crank timing (all 352/390): 3 deg, manual trans, 2 to 10 deg allowable limit 6 deg, auto trans, 2 to 10 deg allowable limit
My 1961 Ford shop manual also shows the 390HP got a C0AF-12127-J or K distributor:
Set test stand to 0 deg @ 250RPM and 0 inch vac 650 RPM: 2.25-3.25, 0 vac 800 RPM: 5.00-6.50, 0 vac 1125 RPM: 7.75-9.00, 0 vac 2000 RPM: 11.50-13.00, 0 vac Max adv limit 14 deg
Shoe.
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| | |  | RE: More than one advance curve for 427?!? -- Mustang Mike, 04/06/2001
Aren't you supposed to double the distributor degrees? Wouldn't that be 14.5 x 2 =29 degrees plus 12 initial =41 degrees. Has to do with the distributor turning at half the speed of the crank. |
| | | |  | That's gotta be it. -- Dave Shoe, 04/07/2001
I think you've made me realize why I've never understood distributor timing. Distributor advance curves are most likely based on distributor shaft degrees, not crankshaft degrees.
Don't know why I never thought of it before, but it makes sense. Maybe I'll start to understand this timing thing after all.
Thanks, Shoe. |
| | | | |  | I think I finally understand as well -- Joshua Carroll, 04/07/2001
I thought that my book did not spec out the whole curve but I guess they did! I had no idea that the distributor turned at half the crank speed. So at 2000 rpm the advance curve is at full advance! Thanks for all your help guys. I have been ready to pull my hair out. |
 | Dual Quad Intake Manifold -- 67Sally, 04/05/2001
I am looking for an education on the topic of Dual Quad Intake Manifolds for the FE390. I know that Offenhauser manufactured a dual plane dual four; did any one else? |
|  | RE: Dual Quad Intake Manifold -- Will, 04/05/2001
Ford had several.
1. They had an early 2x4 dual plane. The carb holes diagonally opposite are connected. That's not a very good description, but it's the best I can do right now w/out a picture.
2. There was a later 2x4 dual plane. This intake was used on the 67 shelby, and I think some of the later 427's. It was taller than the earlier manifold (I think). The carb holes were not connected. That is, there are 4 round holes under each carb.
3. There was a tunnel wedge intake. I don't think this came on anything, but was available over-the-counter. It was a single plane with an air gap. It looked like the tunnel-port 2x4, but it was made for the wedge head.
4. Dove makes copies of the tunnel wedge intake for the medium-riser, high-riser, and special Dove heads.
5. I think Edelbrock made a 2x4 intake. I'm working off of rusty memory on that one, though.
6. There's the Offy intake you mentioned. I think it's still available.
7. There's also the M/T or Edelbrock cross-rams. There may still be one on ebay. They look pretty wicked. The carb for the passenger's side is mounted near the driver's valve cover. The carb for the driver's side is mounted near the passenger's valve cover.
8. Then, of course, there are 2x4's for the TP, HR, and SOHC, but that sorta rules out your 390.
9. There's also a Dove 2x4 tunnel ram, and there was the PSE intake that coverted the FE to a 351C. Then you could run any 351C intake including a tunnel ram.
Did I miss anything? |
|  | RE: Dual Quad Intake Manifold -- Robert, 04/12/2001
If you need any pictures or dimensions of these manifolds, I have many of the ones in question. Just eMail me and I'll take some pix... R |
| |  | RE: Dual Quad Intake Manifold -- bill, 04/12/2001
Performance auto warehouse has the 2x4 FE intake the only carbeurators that can be used on them are Carter AFBs no Holleys. A real Bummer |
 | CJ carb jetting -- Toltz, 04/04/2001
I have my 735 Holly carb being rebuilt and the guy doing it says someone swapped the jets. I guess the primary jets seem small to him and was wondering what the factory jetting was on these cars. It has a standard transmission if it matters. Or does anyone have a suggestion on a good set up for primary and secondary jets for a street set up? |
|  | Factory jets 66pri. 79sec. n/m -- Barry B, 04/04/2001
n/m |
 | Exhaust spit -- Tim B, 04/04/2001
I've got a 428CJ-R C6 in a 69 Cougar. I've had a new 2 1/2" exhaust put in with tips that extend slightly beyond the rear valance. I'm getting a lot of soot and spit that has stained my new white paint :-(
When I start it I get a plume of white/gray smoke that subsides. The Holley was recently rebuilt and runs great.
The oil pressure gauge reads (with a new sending unit) straight up, 45 lbs I think.
Any thoughts?
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|  | RE: Exhaust spit -- Tim B, 04/05/2001
I took the Cougar out today. No smoke at start up or while running. It ran great. It may have been "carboned-up"? It had been started and moved only briefly while it was at the brake shop every day for 2 weeks. |
|  | RE: Exhaust spit -- monte, 04/07/2001
tim, The color of the smoke that comes out of your exhaust will be a good indicator of what could be or is the problem. Black smoke is a carb problem ie stuck choke or floats. blue smoke is oil, worn rings, or broken rings. white smoke is from the transmission and it probably means that your modulator valve is going or gone. if you follow the line from the modulator valve up to the engine you will see that it hooks into a vacuum port and this goes into your engine to be burned, hence the white smoke. Good luck. Monte |
 | 427 -- Brian, 04/04/2001
I have a 67 Mustang witha 390between the towers. I love the engine but I want to upgrade to a 427. What do I look for when looking for a 427. I can't seem to find much info on them except that I've heard topoiler, sideoiler, and centeroiler all used. I do know the basic differences between the low, medium, high rise heads although any extra info on them is also welcome. Thank you for any replies. FE |
|  | Re: 427 -- John R. Barnes, 04/11/2001
Get book by Steve Christ on FE engines. Low, Medium and High is the height of the intake with heads with the same angle. The higher the intake, the better the angle to the intake valve. Top and center oiler are the same animal. Top oilers will work find with modified oil passages and high volume oil pump and shimmed relief spring in back of block.. |
 | carb type -- NICK, 04/03/2001
Does anyone know of a carb with a no. 4412-S. This is fitted to my 1966 289 auto mustang. It is a 2bbl type but does not match any nos I have seen in text books. I need to know which is the mixture control adjustment as I seem to have a problem in quick acceleration from idle as the engine stalls. Any help will be appreciated.
NICK |
 | carb -- wally, 04/02/2001
I am real new with ford carbs. My problem is I have a 66 galaxie with a 352 4-v carb that I don't think the secondarys are opening. I took off the air cleaner and reved it and they didn't open. When I shut the motor off and ran the secondarys by hand they didn't shoot any fuel in the carb. The car runs great. But it runs like a 2-v. What operates the secondarys? Help please! |
|  | RE: carb -- Travis Miller, 04/03/2001
The secondaries are operated by the vaccum chamber at the rear of the carb. It will only open under a load. Free revving the engine will usually not open the secondaries. Sometimes the rubber diaphram gets ruptured and the secondaries will not open. It is simply to replace, but easier if you take the carb off the engine. The diaphram can be purchased seperately without an entire rebuild kit. |
|  | Dis-assembly required. -- Louie, 04/03/2001
Don't know if this applies to your situation or not as you didn't say the model of the carb, but here it goes anyway.
I have had a had a hidden vacuum leak somewhere and in my trobleshooting, I was going to rebuild the carb just to eleminate it as the cause. Well, I took the vac housing off and a little piece of paper fell out. I got to looking at it and it was the backing paper for the little cork gasket that seals the vac port. Holley had installed the gasket with the backing paper on! No wonder I was getting such bad performance (always blamed it on a stock cam and a heavy pickup). Well, I put in a new gasket and violâ, my gas mileage really sucks now. But when my head slaps up against the back window on acceleration, I forget all about it.
Seriously, I have heard many say that you should never just throw on a Holley 3310. You should alway tune it to the application. I discounted their advice. If I had gone over it with a fine tooth comb, I would have caught it a long time ago. Not any more. |
 | C6 Bolt patterns -- david kiser, 04/02/2001
Other than the FE bolt pattern, how many other types of bolt patterns were there on C6 transmissions and which engines did they bolt to? I've gotten a C6 which i think is for the 429/460 motors, and possibly the 351M/400. The uppermost bolt hole in the bell housing comes to a point and also there are several ribs cast into the top of the housing that run lengthwise starting from just behind the top center hole toward the main body of the trans. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
|  | Point? -- Ed Foral, 04/02/2001
There is no C-6 that comes to a point. The small block and 429/460/351M/400 versions have two top holes horizontal from each other with a very flat top edge, and the FE version is rounded at the top.
Ed |
| |  | RE: Point? -- david kiser, 04/03/2001
I was going from memory and obviously was wrong. I have the two top holes horizontally across. THanks for the info. |
| |  | RE: Point? -- Will, 04/03/2001
Now I could've sworn we had a C-6 that came to a point. It looked like the normal 429 bellhousing, but instead of having two bolt holes at the top, it only had one. Yes, I'm sure of it. We didn't use the transmission, though. We were short on cash, so we didn't want to fool with having the trans rebuilt. We had two spares. We tried one spare, and it didn't work at all (the one with one top bolt). Then we tried the other, and it worked fine. |
| |  | RE: missed the "point" -- RJP, 04/03/2001
There is a C6 that comes to a point as the poster describes, it is from a Lincoln of 66-69 vintage that was installed behind the MEL 462 and a few were installed behind the 460. Early 460 blocks have the lower hole drilled and tapped for this application. |
| | |  | I've got a '69 Continental 460/C-6... -- Neppy, 04/03/2001
I'll check to see what the top of the bell-housing looks like of I can get to it.
Neppy |
| | |  | Lower hole? -- Ed Foral, 04/04/2001
What lower hole are you referring to? I have 68 and 69 460 blocks, and I am not sure what hole you are talking about.
Thanks Ed |
| | | |  | RE: Lower hole? -- RJP, 04/05/2001
Looking at the back of the block there is an internal rib cast into the block the runs at an angle from upper left bell housing bolt hole to lower middle right, there should be a bolt hole boss cast into this rib, some blocks are drilled and tapped and some are not. I have a couple of blocks that are drilled and tapped but never used, others are not drilled but the boss is there. |
| | |  | 462 Transmission -- Ed Foral, 04/04/2001
Didn't the 462 including 68 year have the FMX/MX style transmission? 1969 was 460 only, and had a normal looking C-6 with the flat top. The 462 block more resembled an FE?
Ed |
| | | |  | RE: 462 Transmission -- RJP, 04/05/2001
Some 462s used the C6, I had a 66 with a 462 in it but I do not remember what trans was in it. I have a 69 now that has the 460 in it with the "pointed" case this thread is refering to. This "pointed" case usually uses a longer than standard tail shaft housing. |
| | | | |  | 462/C-6 Lincoln rumor -- Dave Shoe, 04/05/2001
Finally, a verifiable Lincoln rumor:
1966 462 C-6: PDE-A 1967 462 C-6: PGC-A 1968 462 C-6: PGC-A3
I guess it makes sense that the Lincoln might get the top-of-the-line tranny made by Ford. This would be a unique bellhousing bolt pattern for a C6.
Shoe. |
| | | | | |  | RE: 462/C-6 Lincoln rumor -- BOB HOPKINS, 04/05/2001
Dave it's Been my belief all 430"-462" Lincoln engines have same bellhousing bolt pattern as 390"-428'' engines as wellas crank flange patterm to bolt FE parts to MEL block |
| | | | | | |  | RE: 462/C-6 Lincoln rumor -- Dave Shoe, 04/05/2001
I've never been sure. I think I glanced at the tail of a 430 once and it didn't ring a bell, so I assumed they were different.
I'll look a little closer next time I'm in the flywheel area.
Shoe. |
| | | | | | | |  | Yup. They look the same. -- Dave Shoe, 04/05/2001
The FE and MEL bellhousing flanges do look the same.
Thanks for the tip.
Shoe. |
|  | RE: C6 Bolt patterns -- Dave Shoe, 04/05/2001
I'm not sure what the bolt pattern is for the 240/300 CID 6-cyl, but I know lotsa Econoline trucks with 300CID motors got C-6 trannys starting in 1975.
There were C-6s for 302, 351W, and 351C engines, too.
Shoe. |
| |  | Small Block C6 Bolt patterns -- Ed Foral, 04/05/2001
The big six used the same pattern as the small block V-8s.
Ed |
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