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 |  390 fe engine codes/casting numbers, help -- Eric H, 05/02/2004
i am preparing to rebuild a motor (first time, i am new to this). i am having trouble identifying the engine i have, 2 codes appear on the motor. The first code i think is the casting number, found on the side: C7ME A. there is another code stamped on the front of the block, it reads:9A104461. what do these mean. can i tell where the motor was produced by these codes? like i said i am new to this and any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance |
|  | RE: 390 fe engine codes/casting numbers, help -- Royce, 05/02/2004
9A104461 is the sequential VIN of the car that engine came in originally.
9 = 1969 model year
A = Atlanta, GA assembly plant
104461 = sequential unit build
The C7ME-A is pretty meaningless. IT is a mold identifier, originally designed in 1967. It appears on many FE's built between 1967 and 1970.
Royce |
| | | RE: 390 FE engine codes/casting numbers, help -- Dave Shoe, 05/03/2004
If the VIN number was stamped on the front of the block, it is probably not a factory stamping, but may be a stamping done by the car owner to assure the block didn't get misplaced at a rebuild house. Factory VIN stampings are typically located at the rear of the engine, when done at all.
Assuming the number is not a scam decoy installed by someone wanting to "suggest" it came from a 428 car (maybe a car build sheet was available which would suggest the VIN referenced a 428, so the number was stamped to falsly suggest it came from that car, who knows), you can find the window sticker of the VIN number by buying one from Kevin Marti, as he is licensed by Ford with the original info for cars of those years.
A Marti Auto window sticker is probably not on your agenda, since you don't own the car, you can check application of the block by doing a "dill bit" check (measuring the water gap between cylinders using drill bit shanks as feeler gauges and comparing with other FE and FT blocks - use the forum search to learn about this)
At any rate, there are more markings and features on your block which will identify it's original application. For now, it's safe to assume it can be used in 390 applications, though a sonic mapping of the cylinder walls will be desirable, if you wish to learn how far the block can be overbored. Many 390s are good for a reliable +.030", but a few have been stuffed with different cylinder jacket cores and can handle a larger overbore.
Shoe. |
| | |  | Factory VIN-stamp locations can vary, quite a bit. [n/m] -- Mr F, 05/03/2004
n/m |
| | | | VIN number locations? -- Fred, 05/03/2004
I'm contemplating buying a 68 coupe but haven't found any VIN numbers. What are the usual locations? |
 | Cam duration question -- Gene, 05/02/2004
Can someone explain to me the different duration readings I see when looking at cams. I see total duration and duration at .050 lift. Why the difference?? If I see .223 at .050 lift what would the total duration be?? Sorry if this is a simple question, I just don't understand the difference.
Thanks,
Gene |
| gas in the oil? -- blake fensler, 05/02/2004
How can gas get in the oil pan? My buddy has a 68 cougar w/a used 351w in it.(transplanted) It runs really nice, even though the 650 holley on it leaks like a siv. The engine started to spit out gas, it seemed like from every possible orifice?!! We checked the dipstick and it was about 3-4 inches above the FULL line! It seemed that gas somehow just fed through the junk holley straight down the intake and into the pan. Oh, and it's gas, not water in the pan. Is this possible? It seems so strange... Definately a new carb is on order!! |
| | Fuel pump -- raycfe, 05/02/2004
If the fuel pump diapham goes bad, it will pump it also into the engine. |
| |  | blown power valve in carb if engine is racing... -- dennie, 05/02/2004
will fill up and empty tank in a matter of seconds |
| | RE: gas in the oil? -- galaxiefreak64, 05/02/2004
i had that happen to me and my grand dad, who has worked for ford for 40 years said. that the vaule is stuck open and too much air and gas is flowing into the chamber and the gas is leaking around the rings. but thats what happened to mine, but there could be other reasons. |
| | | Fuel pump. -- Royce, 05/02/2004
The diaphragm is ruptured and gas is draining from the tank directly into the engine. No amount of carb problems will do that.
Pull it outside and be very cautious working around all that raw gas. Go out there right now and put a small c - clamp on the rubber gas line from the frame to the fuel pump to block further flow.
Royce |
| | | | RE: Fuel pump. -- blake fensler, 05/03/2004
Thanks! I'll replace the fuel pump right away... |
| | | | well my holley carb dumped over 5 gal -- dennie, 05/03/2004
into my oil pan in a matter of seconds, literally watched the gauge go down as the engine was racing and backfiring out exhaust, as i said if it's running and engine is racing it could be the power valve. of course i changed fuel pump first also , but ended up it was the carb, just another option for ya.. |
| stock 428 compression ratio -- don, 05/02/2004
I have a 1966 standard 428 I think came out of a T-Bird.What is the factory compresson ratio on this?It is still standard bore with c6ae-a heads.I am wanting to know if I can run 87 octane in it.Also,if I put early 58' machined combustion chamber heads on it would this increase the ratio? |
| How much horsepower would it take? -- Jay, 05/02/2004
I have a 68 f100 shortbed with a fairly strong 390. This truck ran 13.90's in the quarter literally smoking the tires all the way through first gear. I had to get in and out of the gas to keep the spin down and that was with 17 lbs of air in the tires. Just curious if you guys new how much HP it would take to make a truck of 3800+ lbs run in the 13's. I honestly think with slicks I could of gotten in the low 13's. Just curious. |
| | RE: How much horsepower would it take? -- Wayne K., 05/02/2004
E.T. is not really what you need to look at for horsepower. It's the MPH in the quarter mile that will help determine your horsepower. Almost impossible to say with any accuracy at this point.
Wayne |
| | | RE: How much horsepower would it take? -- Jay, 05/02/2004
MPH was around 98 mph. |
| | | | Probably right at 300 horsepower @ flywheel -- Wayne K., 05/02/2004
That's using a calculator that I have. I would imagine that other's would come up with similar results.
The reason you can't accurately determine horsepower from your E.T. is because you said you had tire spin. That generally wipes out accuracy more from the E.T. perspective than the MPH perspective.
Wayne |
| | | | | Thanks Wayne ! -- Jay, 05/02/2004
If I remember correctly the mph was rather eratic as well. I guess from all the peddling I had to do for the first 120ft. I gave you 98 mph as an avg. Some of the mph's were up to 102 and as low as 94. |
| | | | | | RE: Thanks Wayne ! -- giacamo, 05/02/2004
jay with thouse numbers gestamating 350 to 375 hp 390. |
| | | | | | | Remember to add driver's weight -- Wayne K., 05/02/2004
Of course 102 MPH raises the HP numbers somewhat...
W. |
| | | | | | | | Just ran it with another calculator: -- Wayne K., 05/02/2004
349 Horsepower @ 98 MPH trap speed (assuming you are 200 lbs)
393 Horsepower @ 102 MPH trap speed (again assuming you are 200 lbs)
Here is the site I just used:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/quarter.html
Here is the site I used earlier:
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calchpm.htm
After thinking about it, I agree the above site is mislabelled as "flywheel horsepower". I think it represents rear wheel horsepower. I ran my car's numbers through it and they are close to my rear wheel figures.
Wayne |
| | | | | | | | | I appreciate your help and info guys. Thanks -- Jay, 05/02/2004
nm |
| Help with Cam Selection for 390 -- Gene, 05/02/2004
I am currently restoring a 68 Fastback S code. I have the original engine which I plan to pull this Summer. When I overhaul I want to warm it up a tad. Currently it has ps and pb and a 4 speed running 3.25 gears. Plans for the motor include 3x2V (orginal Ford setup for the 406), Edlebrock heads, Hooker headers, and most likely a 3.91 gear. This will be a show car 90% of the time. My question is this, What is the largest grind (lift wise) I can install without fly cutting the pistons? I will be using the stock rockers and running a hydraulic cam. One person recommended I stay around .514 lift and about 290 deg total duration. I am after the racy lope but do not want to jeopardize vacuum for the brakes. Any suggestions??
Thanks,
Gene |
| | RE: Help with Cam Selection for 390 -- Jay, 05/02/2004
I'm no expert on cams either. However I did have a Lunati hyd in a 390 that had a super sweet sound to it. Specs were .228 int .235 exh with a 530 lift. That may be too much for good vacuum though. I just remember getting so many comments on how good it sounded. If you ran a cam this big with edelbrock heads I would think you would need to bump the compression to at least 10.5-11.1. |
| | | RE: Help with Cam Selection for 390 -- Gene, 05/02/2004
Thanks Jay,
Did you use this with stock pistons? Did you have to vut the pistons for the .530 lift?? I am trying to find out what the maximum lift I can use without cutting the stock pistons.
Thanks,
Gene |
| | | | RE: Help with Cam Selection for 390 -- Jay, 05/02/2004
I used flat tops with the 4 valve reliefs. I beleive the book states compression at 9.5. With these pistons you can run alot of lift. I ran a .572 lift with these pistons in another motor. I clayed it to check for clearance on the valves and it wasn't even close. Forgot to mention these were TRW forged. Just to throw another option at ya. Friend of mine used one of Lunatis Bracket Master II cams in his 390 and it sounds nice as well and runs strong also. Specs are .223 @ .050 with a 515 lift. Makes pretty good power. He ran 14.30's in a F100 pickup. Should make decent vacuum also. |
| | | | | RE: Help with Cam Selection for 390 -- Gene, 05/02/2004
Thanks Jay, Looks like the Lunati Bracket Master II may be the cam I am looking for.
Gene |
| curious -- jim, 05/01/2004
i been kinda lookin and havent found yet info
im starting work on a 68 mustang and am using a truck engine in it ...yes truck engines have been used i know but the particular one im using hasnt (that i can find) so im wondering if anyone has heard of or done a mustang (of any year) with a 360 FE engine in it
|
| | Some guys might use 360 block & crank, but not the rest. [n/m] -- Mr F, 05/01/2004
n/m |
| | | RE: Some guys might use 360 block & crank, but not the rest. [n/m] -- jim, 05/02/2004
im putting a 360 completly in this thing.... with a few upgrades :D cant wait to hear it.. someone ran it on a desktop dyno and the numbers are amazing
|
| | Drops right in. -- Dave Shoe, 05/02/2004
The truck oil pan will be incorrect, and if it's not a front sump the oil pickup will also need to be changed to fit. There's also a 60% chance the oil filter bracket might be a truck type, and you'll have to swap another one on. They're common and cheap, and the large port adapters came on all 1968-later FEs, as well as on 1968-later pickup trucks that used the car type of filter bracket.
Yo may wish to redrill the heads with the eight extra bolt holes (not too deep or you'll strike water), since the bosses were cast into thos heads but not drilled at all exhaust manifold positions. The Mustang shock towers make good use of the extra bolt holes, since the bottom holes are frequently too difficult to install.
Be sure to select a header that properly port matches the "low-exit" head. fordpowertrain.com is a place to look.
You'll be running about 8.5:1 compression with stock pistons, so you'll have no trouble running any type of gas.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: Drops right in. -- jim, 05/02/2004
actually plan on bumping the compression to about 9.5 or 10 :1
|
| | | | RE: Drops right in. -- giacamo, 05/02/2004
i.d toss every thing but the block and bild a 390 |
| | | | | RE: Drops right in. -- jim, 05/02/2004
too comon
|
| Intake Manifold question? -- Randall Ellison, 05/01/2004
Will a Performer RPM intake fit on a 60 model 352 ? I don't know if I have a 390 or a 352 block, but the heads are COAE. Thanks.
Randall |
| | Yup. -- Dave Shoe, 05/02/2004
It's a good fit. You'll have to yank the manifold alignment pin out froim the top front of the block, because I suspect the RPM intake lacks the machined slot that the block pin is intended to fit.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: Yup. -- Randall Ellison, 05/02/2004
Thanks Dave. The car is a 60 Thunderbird and I don't have much experience with the FE. The only numbers I could find on the block was the casting numbers ( C1AE6015C ), but from what I've read on here that don't mean nothing. Is there anything to look for with the intake off to tell if it is a 390?
Randall |
| | | | RE: Yup. -- Boidman Of ATL, 05/03/2004
If the engine is original to the car(never been removed) then it wont be a 390.It wasent used in da boids untill the next body style(61-63) So it either going to be a 352..which is rated at the same horsepower of the early 390s(300) or a 430 rated at 350hp |
| | | | | C1AE-C block marking suggests it's not original. -- Dave Shoe, 05/03/2004
Since the car is a 1960 and the block is a C1AE-C, it's very likely it is not original to the car. Since 1961 was the first year for the 390, it could be either displacement. Date coding the block will help determine whether it is a 352 original to the car.
Also, block casting marks from 1964 tend to be unreliable. Up through 1963 it seems the numbers are likely to be fairly reliable. Having said that, I'm not sure how accurate the documentation is. To be sure, we're still trying to determine the validity and accuracy of casting numbers on early FE blocks.
I believe casting numbers got mucked up in 1964 with the introduction of the FT, as there were suddenly a whole bunch of casting variations needed for the FE and all new FT, and the foundry may have had to scramble to make the variations economical top produce by using portions of molds in multiple applications.
JMO,
Shoe. |
| | | | | | RE: C1AE-C block marking suggests it's not original. -- Randall Ellison, 05/03/2004
I have not been able to see the date code. The block should be black if it is an original, but this one is blue and appears to be its original color. I think you are right about it possibly being a 61 (352 or 390).
I ordered the Performer RPM, Performer 600cfm and already have FPA headers and Pertronix ignition. Nothing hot, just a good driver. Thanks guys.
Randall |
| | | | | | | 352 blocks tend to bore out to 390 without issue. -- Dave Shoe, 05/03/2004
The 352 and 390 blocks appear to use the same cylinder jacket sand cores, while the 361Edsel/390 block of early years tends to use a larger diameter barrel core, just to reduce the amount of iron that needs to be cut in the 30 seconds available on the production line.
It sounds like you've got a good basis for an engine, whether 352 or 390.
It does appear that Tbird FE blocks were all painted black, at least into 1965. Gold paint accenting (valve covers, air cleaner) was also normal on the TBird, at least for some of those years. I'm still learning about paint schemes of stock FEs.
Shoe. |
| | | | | | | | RE: 352 blocks tend to bore out to 390 without iss -- Boidman Of ATL, 05/03/2004
The valve covers and air cleaner on my boid are silver painted and the block is black.When I buy the performer aluminum heads,what else do i need to buy to complete the heads(rockers,diffrent pushrods?) |
| Min. Quench clearence/piston to head clearence? -- David, 05/01/2004
I am in need of some Hi Performance info.
I would like to & need to know what the
minimum/thightest quench clearence/piston to head clearence is that can be used on a '68 S code 390 FE. The motor will be lucky to see much over 6k RPM if 6k at all.
I am planning to run a min. of .020"
piston to head clearence in the quench/squish area. Just by changing the head gasket to a
.020" steel shim which would also bump my
CR to abt 11.7:1.
I am rebuilding & assembling the motor now.
I am going to be putting it on an engine dyno.
Depending on how it runs I may want to switch in the .020" shim gasket to get more power from the higher CR & tighter squish.
Below is a list of what other info I feel might be needed. If there is any more info need to help in answering my question please let me know. Thanks in advance.
stock steel rods
ROSS custom made forged pistons .030" over
Total Seal Gapless top rings
block is decked & pistons are @ 0 deck with
only the dome above deck
heads stock C8AE-H 390 GT (with 428cj valves)
Piston to valve clearence is not going to be a
problem. There is a ton of clearence there.
I have the chamber, valves, piston & exhaust port coated with a thermal coating By Swain Tech.
Built C6 trany & 3.25 rear gears. |
| Galaxie 31 spline axles -- will, 04/30/2004
what year did Ford go to a 31 spline axle in full size Galaxies? I have an original R-code 427 and the axles are large with 2 holes in the outside flange, but the axle narrows down to 28 spline?? |
| | RE: Galaxie 31 spline axles -- McQ, 05/02/2004
This is a great question will that I thought would have gotten a response by now. So I'm going to go ahead and respond with conjecture. I've heard from various sources it was during the 1964 production year that the 31 spline axles were phased in. It was at the same time that the top loader Ford 4 speed was phased in. Early '64 427/390 Galaxies got the Borg Warner T-10 along with, and I've seen this with my own eyes, the 28 spline axles. I have not actually seen 31 spline axles in '64 427 Fords/Mercs but I've been told that some were built this way.
So this is not definite information but maybe someone will jump in now to straighten us out. |
| | RE: Galaxie 31 spline axles -- Travis Miller, 05/03/2004
Unless you are running slicks and doing some serious drag racing, the 28 spline high performance axles will work fine. The 31 spline axles for the 63-64 housing are extremely hard to find if not impossible. Companies such as Moser can custom make them for around $300.
www.moserengineering.com |
| | | RE:There you are -- McQ, 05/04/2004
I want to affirm what Travis has indicated regarding the reliability of 28 spline axles. I ran both a 428CJ/C-6 with 9" slicks and a '64 427/4 speed with M&H "Street" slicks in a '61 Starliner that was originally a 292/cruiso. Of course I did change the differential(numerous times....I enjoy doing this apparently) but I never changed the original '61 28 spline axles. The big Galaxie ran in the high 13's/low 100's without any problems at the rear end. There were actually never any serious problems anywhere else either. |
| | | | RE:There you are -- Will, 05/06/2004
Thanks for all your responses. From the responses I am thinking that any 65 to 67 Galaxie with 427/428 engine will have the 31 spline axles?? Then I could put them in my 63 R-code?? |
| | | | | RE:no -- McQ, 05/07/2004
Sorry Will, the '65 up axle is a different length than the '60-'64 thus they won't work. Also, the '66 up 428 full size Ford/Mercs still only had 28 splines. The standard Thunderbird/Galaxie 428 was a not a true High Performance engine like the 427. The 31 spline axles that came in Mustang/Cougar 428 CJ cars and Torino/Montego 428 CJ won't work in your '63 either. Again, different length.
I'd stick with the 28 spline axles you have unless you're going to do some serious racing as Travis indicated. Then you may as well have a custom set made. |
| | | | | | RE:no -- MeanGene, 07/21/2004
The one exception is the '66 T-bird with the 428, it came with 31's, I have a set in my '62 406 6V car that now has a 427. I actually have the whole rearend from the 'Bird, length and bearing sizes are the same, big bearing. If you wanted to change the spring pads, you could use the entire rearend, but it's not necessary. I pulled the rearend out of the wrecked 'Bird myself in '77, so I'm sure where it came from. They've been in the car with a Summers Bros. spool and 5:14 gears ever since, just had it apart last week, still look like new |
| | | | | | | yes but..... -- hawkrod, 07/21/2004
a 66 tbird with 31 spline axles is also a 9 3/8 rear end. all 66 tbirds with 9 inch rears still had 28 spline axles. and as a bit of trivia, one of the 9 3/8 axles is the wrong length for a 9 inch as the 9 3/8 was offset a little different in the differential. i used one 66 tbird 9 3/8 axle and a 72 ford 9 inch axle to make a cheap set for my 62 tbird. also note that 31 spline axles are actually common in 428 and 429 galaxies from 66-71 but they are almost all 9 3/8 although there are a few 9 inchers among them especially in P and R code cars. hawkrod |
| | | | | | | | RE: yes but..... -- MeanGene, 07/22/2004
Sorry, but this one was a 9 inch, had a plain jane 9" pumpkin, not a 9-3/8, and a 31 spline open diff. I matched up the axles with the original 28 spline big bearings, same length. The wear pattern in the spool also showed the correct length, and this is the only rearend it's been in. I had a 66 'Bird at the time, no mistaking the car. To say all cars of a line had such and such is usually kinda risky, I've seen Ford station wagons with 12-bolt GM rearends, and Chevy 4x4's with 9 inch rears- if they ran short, what's available went in. An old friend (now deceased) was a district service engineer and troubleshooter for Lincoln- Mercury, he was the one who tipped me off where to look for 31's. That doesn't mean that they were all 9 inch 'ers, but some were. You shoulda seen the cars he used to bring home, '71 429 SCJ Cougar convertible, white w/ white leather int., 4 spd. & 3.91's was pretty special, but got scrapped for liability reasons. His son cried when it got scrapped, he drove it in the homecoming parade with girls in the back. One son had a '68 Cougar XR7-G w/ 390, his other son's all-original '69 Boss 302 is parked behind my shop right now. |
| | | | | | | | | well if you say so but ford says it isn't true.... -- hawkrod, 07/22/2004
you can believe what you'd like but ford would have a record of it if they made them as it would be needed for service to repair cars under warantee. my bet is somebody replaced the center as they are swapable. you can put a 9 inch in place of a 9 3/8 and use the axles as is but axle engagement is not ideal. a 9 inch should have a 27 7/8 and a 32 1/4 axle in a 66 bird but the 31 spline axles are 31 7/8 and 27 31/32. this means the 9 3/8 axles will work in a 9 inch but the RH axle will be 3/8 short of optimal and the LH is 3/32 longer (which is no problem and what I used but mine is a 62 so it is actually only 1/16 longer). a better fit on the RH axle is a 72 Tbird/lincoln Mk with 9 3/8 which is a 32 3/16 which gives full axle engagement (I actualy had to cut the extra 1/16th off! the shaft bottomed out on the spider cross shaft). hawkrod |
| | | | | | | | | are you saying ford used gm rear ends -- dennie, 07/22/2004
from the factory because of a supply shortage, come on now? I guess they just called each other up, and reported what they were short of that day, damn we need to turn out these galaxies see if the chevy plant has any rears lying around and get engineering on the phone while you're at it. RIDICULOUS |
| | | | | | | | | | RE: are you saying ford used gm rear ends -- Don, 07/22/2004
I would'n't put it past any manufacturer in the day, many three speed GM intermediates in the mid 60's used Ford transmissions - I've seen them in GTO'S and some Cutlasses - strange but true. |
| | | | | | | | | | | yes, that is true but it was not a shortage issue -- hawkrod, 07/22/2004
that was a supply contract. ford contracted with BOP to supply heavy duty 3 speeds for GM intermediates. same as delco supplying starters for 460 fords and rochester supplying carbs for 429 CJ's. that is a supply contract and is not unusual in the industy. but unlike what has been suggested, this was not a case of using whatever was laying around, these were well negotiated contracts that were signed well before production started. hawkrod |
| | | | | | | | | | | Sure, but Ford used lots of B-W trannies, too. [n/m] -- Mr F, 07/22/2004
n/m |
| | | | | | | | | | You're right, as is hawkrod. Its NOT about 'shortages'. [n/m] -- Mr F, 07/22/2004
n/m |
| | | | | | helpfull info... -- hawkrod, 07/22/2004
the 63/4 31 spline axles are C3AZ-4234-A RH 31 1/8 long and C3AZ-4234-B (which is an unusual number for LH axle!) LH 27 3/4 long. there are no other stock length axles from a passenger car with 31 spline axles that are close to those lengths from 1960-1980 that could interchange. hawkrod |
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