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| 69 428-4V CJ R-code -- don, 11/11/2003
I'm new to learning & starting my restore project. From what I've searched here & other sites - questions I have are for the Ram Air options. My Marti reports shows Ram Air, production of 4/1/69, and I have the Flapper hood with under-hood ram air system. DID early 428CJ Rs show shaker ram as an option (if shaker system), or were they not available till later in 1969? thanks much |
| | Shaker is Mustang, Flapper is Fairlane. -- Dave Shoe, 11/11/2003
For 1969, the R-code Fairlane/Torino got the hood scoop with functioning flapper. The 1969 R-code Mustang came with the Shaker.
The Q-code 428 Mustang got the Fairlane type of hood scoop, but without any hood cut-outs, so it was only decorative.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: Shaker is Mustang, Flapper is Fairlane. -- Don, 11/11/2003
Dave, What I keep trying to prove is that I have a 68 Ram Air hood & system from the factory with my 69 R-code 428 package. The numbers on my fixed scoop are C90-B 16C664-B, & C9ZB 16C664-B embossed on underside. The 428 emblems and all paint seems to match the car & hood. I guess that the shaker style is assumed if Mach 1 were ordered as R-code after a certain date. My Marti & Ford issued reports only read Ram Air, no mention to Shaker hood style. Well maybe my April 1st build date as something to do with it. Thanks for the input. |
| | | | RE: Shaker is Mustang, Flapper is Fairlane. -- Geoff McNew, 11/12/2003
My daddy ordered a '69 R-code shaker scoop Mach 1 in mid '68 from his pal who co-owned the South Sanfagsicko Ford dealership and from whom our family biz ordered at least 20 Fords over the years. It was delivered, yes they used to do that, right into the driveway in San Anselmo,CA, clear across the bridge, in mid Dec. of '68. It was the 2nd 428 Mach 1 sold in CA at the time...no slats, no spoilers, green metallic...it was raining at the time...I was 6 years old, but it was one of my first salient childhood memories...pretty sick, huh.
Dada had ordered it with a 4.10 gear, 4-speed, posi and windage tray... that's what the dealer wrote up...and that's what my very anal machinery salesman dad had down on paper. Of course, we find, it never was sold with a 4.10 gear, and no it didn't come that way either...he was pissed!
When it did show up...many weeks late...in mid Dec., it had a C-6 and no tray. It did have the 3.91 Tac-loc, and although I couldn't tell you for sure if it had an oil cooler, I'd have to guess it was still an SCJ. Dada was going to refuse the car b/c of the auto and re-order, but b/c of all the hype and demand (the H-M car had won the winternationals / hot rod mag articles, etc.) the best the dealer could do was tell him 4 months on another order.
I suspect there were a lot of these sort of "stories" on first model year cars. My #9R02R132760 w/ V-code axle & 6-code trans looks very much like the guys in San Jose,CA were trying to "get it together", although the thing has clearly never been stuffed. From my own experience in the machinery business selling 800 HP pumps 22' long with lube sets, seal systems & Falk reducers the size of pianos, I can understand how it happens. ISO-9000 was still a long way off.
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| | | RE: Shaker is Mustang, Flapper is Fairlane. -- steve prather, 03/31/2004
I had a 1 off 1969 mustang gt coupe r model 428. Some old man didnt like the Mach 1 style and ordered the biggest engine in a coupe gt style. When it came in he refused it as the shaker hood he thought was weird. Drove it for about 3 years got rid of it . Found it about 10 yrs ago and was completely trashed had 390 no shaker had been stripped of everything.....sure wish i would have kept it...
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| | Two things: Ram-Air was included with a '69 'R'-code. [Edited][n/m] -- Mr F, 11/11/2003
n/m |
| | | So a 'R' code CJ isn't necessarily Ram Air? -- blinker, 11/12/2003
Always heard the non ram air's were 'Q' and ram airs 'R' |
| | | | Uh, no - I mis-typed that. Let's try again, now that's its morning... -- Mr F, 11/12/2003
Since I screwed up the initial post, let's
start with the basic facts:
- All 'R'-code 428-equipped Ford or Mercury
cars came with Ram-Air, from the factory.
- In the specific case of 1969 Mustangs,
this Ram-Air took the form of a through-hood ('shaker') induction
system.
- In all other 1969 car lines, an under-hood
('sealed flapper') system was used.
So, while your car should have Ram-Air clearly it has the wrong set-up for a Mustang...most likely a Fairlane or Cougar system
that was swapped on by a previous owner. *
Why? Well, its not a new idea for folks to
strip off bolt-on, desirable HiPo goodies - like a shaker - when selling their car,
if only to maximize their profit. And theft of these items
is yet another time-honored tradition. For most of the past
30 years finding a replacement a shaker has been a difficult,
expensive pursuit. So, if a compatible underhood system just happened
to come along at the right price...
Sorry for the botched explanation, earlier.
Hope this helps.
Mr F
* As you'll see
in this
related thread, using underhood Ram-Air on a '69 Mustang is not such a
far-fetched notion. But, before you get any wild ideas, please read my
post carefully. And let's recall that 1969 production began in the Summer
of 1968. So, a unit assembled in April of '69 can hardly be
considered 'early'. |
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| | | | | RE: Uh, no - I mis-typed that. Let's try again, now that's its morning... -- Don, 11/12/2003
Mr F, I know what you mean & meant on the ram air - & I agree my car (CJ) should have a shaker hood for date built. I don't have a build sheet, and everything pointed to a 351 code hood with 428 emblems stuck on the fixed scoop matching the air cleaner assy.. I'll restore to a shaker hood - And I assume "SHAKER" as an option does not appear on equipment list for 69 R-code Mach 1s. thanks again! I wanted a shaker hood - but don't want to mis-configure the car. |
| | ...and Mustang Ram-Air was a 'shaker'. Yours is not stock. [n/m] -- Mr F, 11/11/2003
n/m |
| | | RE: ...and Mustang Ram-Air was a 'shaker'. Yours is not stock. [n/m] -- Don, 11/12/2003
Thanks folks.... wow - lots of data. Mr. F, thanks for two things! My reports read "Ram Air"... so It should be restored to a shaker hood & air cleaner assembly? Thanks... I never read anywhere that a 69 428-4V CJ R-code could be ordered without Ram Air. 1968 Ram Air (under-hood) without shaker assembly were nice, too. |
| | | | '68s were the only Mustang 428s with underhood Ram-Air. [n/m] -- Mr F, 11/12/2003
n/m |
| | | | Please amended post, above + my other response. [n/m] -- Mr F, 11/12/2003
n/m |
| | | | | in '69, R-code meant 428 w/Ram Air, but... -- Geoff McNew, 11/12/2003
only the Mustang with R-code received the thru hood, engine-mounted scoop. So, in 1969, if you ordered any other Ford product, say a Torino with an R-code 428, you got under-hood ram air & no shaker. But, in 1970, if you ordered that Torino with R-code 428, you did get a shaker, correct?
This guy here seems to be "Mr. Shaker":
http://www.perogie.com/ShakerRamAir.htm |
| | | | | | no 428's in 1970 Torino's 429 CJ SCJ had shaker -- blinker, 11/12/2003
if they were equipped with ram air,Cyclone had under hood flapper system |
| | | | | | | RE: no 428's in 1970 Torino's 429 CJ SCJ had shaker -- Geoff McNew, 11/12/2003
so Perogie's web site is wrong?
...now, I'm starting to get the shakes |
| | | | | | | | In '70, 428CJ was Mustang/Cougar only. [n/m] -- Mr F, 11/12/2003
n/m |
| | Don, you have late 1969 Mustang, should be shaker -- Royce Peterson, 11/16/2003
1969 Mustang production officially began in July 1968.
A 1969 Mustang with "R" in the engine position in its VIN (fifth digit) would have a shaker equipped 428CJ. Period.
All ram air 1969 Mustangs came with a shaker. Someone has cobbled together some Cougar / Cyclone / Fairlane stuff on your car it seems.
Royce |
| | | RE: Don, you have late 1969 Mustang, should be shaker -- Don, 11/16/2003
Royce, Yes I agree, and thanks... I know now the car lost original equipment about two owners back. I will restore with the correct shaker system, new hood, etc (my car is an "R"). It's great to have these forums - I now see that late 69 Mach 1 productions were a certain way and without the odd assemblies that I first thought took place on the assembly line. |
| | | | Cobra Jet webite -- scf100, 11/21/2003
Try here for more info on your R-code Mustang www.428cobrajet.org |
| 390 Build Up -- Bob Travis, 11/11/2003
Good Morning, I'm getting ready to build a 390 and since this will be my first big block I'm looking for ideas. The goal is to run on pump gas and produce 500+hp. The motor will be backed up by a C6 Auto and 9" locker w/411 gears. Any ideas on what combos work, don't work and tricks of the FE would be welcomed! Thanks, Bob |
| | RE: 390 Build Up -- Ross, 11/11/2003
Bob I think 500 horse is a little ambitious from a 390, but, if I were to try it I'd do the following. It'd be radical though
- Edelbrock alum heads with a serious professional porting and as much valve as you can fit. Probably CJ sized, but with a good back cut to boot
- 11:1 compression or better to live with the big cam
- A big roller cam 250@.050 or more with lift to match the heads
- A Dove single plane or Victor intake and a big Holley Double Pumper, 850-ish
- Finally find some older or custom big tube headers, 2 inch or so
That 390 would snort, but it wont like to idle and you'll have to rev the pi$$ out of it so all the high dollar short block stuff would be needed to hold together
IMO I would build a 375-400 horse motor and put another 100 shot of juice. Overbuild the lower end for the juice but keep it mild enough to be driveable, then when you hit the button, voila, you have your 500+ |
| | RE: 390 Build Up -- Glenucci, 11/11/2003
http://www.hotrod.com/webonly_january/ In the January '03 issue of HOT ROD magazine, they reviewed the parts needed to build a pump-gas, 9.68:1-compression 390 Ford that makes 450 hp at 5,600 rpm and 460 lb-ft at 3,900. |
| | RE: 390 Build Up -- giacamo, 11/11/2003
bob Glenucci,s hot rod post looks very interrsting. one thing i allways do on my re bilds is toss those littel oil gallie push in plugs, and tap and install allen plugs.if one pops out i,t make you very upset........ |
| | RE: 390 Build Up -- Bob Travis, 11/12/2003
Thanks for all of the info! Let me ask one more question, Is there a better year block than another to start with? I have a 390 4v out of a 66 bird as a doner. Good, Bad, is there better? Thanks, Bob |
| one more SOHC shot -- McQ, 11/11/2003
Okay that went so easily I'll post one more before hitting the hay......check those titanium rockers.
This FE ain't a piece of art work - it screams at 8,000 rpm!
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| Fynn's 370" SOHC -- McQ, 11/11/2003
Its been awhile since I've posted a few shots of Dick Flynn's FE.
'68 sideoiler block, 361 crank, sleeved down, 370 C.I. It ran a documented 217 mph at Bonneville this past September.
The heads and all parts including titanium rocker arms, cams - literally everyhting are Dick Flynn fabricated.
It's late. I just received these pics. I'll post more with a little more info to follow.
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| ford oiling -- peter costa, 11/11/2003
hello i was wondering if someone can give me straight answers on these questions 1) can i run a solid cam in my hydraulic with no mods? 2) should i restrict my oil galleries to the lifters becasue i am going to a solid? 3) how do i do that? is their a site with pics and good step by step instructions? 4) how bout high vol oil pumps? 5) ill be running edelbrock alum heads, do i leave the galleries alone and block off oil port to head then run hollow push rods for the oiling instead? 6) ? |
| | RE: ford fe oiling mods -- peter costa, 11/11/2003
hey guys can anyone take a look at my questions reagarding my 390/410 questions and see what u guys have to say about them / thanks alot |
| | RE: ford oiling -- Dan, 11/13/2003
Hi the stock oiling to the top of the Fe's are plenty to oil & cool , the problem is the rest the puny 3/8ths oil supply to the motor . My suggestion is have a quality machine shop open the oiling to match 427 centeroilers ,( i do my own ) and mabey other people know more about high rpms if that is what you are looking for, Dan |
| 390 intake pushrods pretzeled -- Glenucci, 11/10/2003
My formerly well running 390 began to run poorer and poorer. Seven out of eight intake pushrods are severly bent. Suspect the cam timing has gone south; if so, can I replace all the pushrods and timing set and hope for the best, or must I pull the heads? What is the torque for the rocker shaft bolts? Is there any other explanation for the bent pushrods? Thanks. |
| Tick Tick Tick -- Steve, 11/10/2003
I have recently purchased a 1967 Mustang coupe, 289 auto trans. The car is essentially stock, except for the parts I have replaced to get it running. (Rebuilt carb, new points, plugs, leads, fuel pump, dist cap).
After a lengthy battle to get it through our government AirCare emisions test, the car is finally insured.
My problem is that one of the lifters has started to tick. I have tried an engine cleaner and it still persists, if not worse. I am not too sure if I should be driving it in this condition. The other day while on a test drive it started to miss a little, and cough a little upon acceleration.
Is it time to pull the rocker covers and take a look? What should I be looking for?
My other problem is how do I get the rocker cover off. It seems it is now one with the engine. Removing the cover bolts, did not loosen the cover. Is there a trick,because I don't want to damage anything?
Any pointers would be appreciated, thanks in advance for your help.
Steve (Vancouver, Canada) |
| | RE: Tick Tick Tick -- Travis Miller, 11/10/2003
You can find the exact location of the "tick, tick, tick" by taking a length of hose, put it to your ear like a stethoscope and move it around on the valve covers. With the hose you will be able to pinpoint which rocker arm is ticking.
This trick will also work in finding other weird sounds on your engine like a bad alternator bearing, noisy fuel pump or even a vacuum leak. |
| | RE: Tick Tick Tick -- giacamo, 11/10/2003
steve check your oil press wen the engine is hot if it is low and a lifter startes to tick it's problie time for a rebild.if it ticks all the time may be valve guide? if you have good oil press rocker arm loose? or a bad lifter?bent push rod?the valve cover just work around it it will come off.if it,s just a tin one you can stratein it....... |
| Rearend Gearing -- Travis Miller, 11/10/2003
I know I have discussed this before but there are still guys who build up their FEs with cam, intake, heads, etc and retain the stock gear that came in the car. Unless your car was a true high performance one out of the factory, it more than likely came with a 2.75 or 3.00 gear ratio. Make all the horsepower you want but without a good gear ratio it will not accelerate like it should. Of course if you have to drive long miles strictly on the highway, there is no need for acceleration.
Remember that a decent stock 4 barrel engine with a low set of gears will usually out run a built up engine that is backed by 2.75 gears in a drag race.
Lets hear some actual hands on stories about what gear ratios that a FE owner can live with for acceleration and all around performance.
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| | RE: Rearend Gearing -- Gerry Proctor, 11/10/2003
An appropriate gear ratio is a relationship to the engine's power band and how the vehicle is used, Travis. Horsepower is a mathematical manipulation of torque. So if you have a mountain of torque at low rpm you may also have a very high horsepower number at low rpm. This is a common scenario in supercharged applications. In that regard, a numerically low gear ratio may indeed be appropriate to the application.
It makes no sense to install steep gears in a car whose engine peters out at 4,000 rpm.
The reason you see or hear of "built" cars with factory ratios is that it is much harder for the novice to change gears than it is to install headers, cam, and intake.
You are correct in that this occurance is less than optimal since a car and how it performs is the sum of its parts and how well they compliment each other. And in that regard, it usually has a negative result when you build an engine that doesn't even turn on until it hits 3k rpm but using a 3.0:1 or less gear ratio and a stock converter, if using an automatic.
Yes, the correct gear ratio can completely change the character of the car. But there are not a lot of absolutes so a builder may make high V/E at under 3k rpm and multiply that low rpm grunt with the lower rear ratio.
But rear gear ratio is but one thing in a laundry list of mismatches.
I run a 3.89 geared Detroit Locker because my engine doesn't come up on the cam until around 3k rpm and pulls hard to the limiter at 6k rpm. The engine's bottom end is far too soggy to make use of the factory 3.0 gears. |
| | | RE: Rearend Gearing -- Travis Miller, 11/10/2003
Exactly right Gerry. In most cases a bigger cam, intake and headers are useless unless it is accompanied with a rearend gear change. I know of many instances where someone took a fair running car and slowed it down with a bigger cam and intake all because they did not install a set of gears that took advantage of the modifications. I also know of a few who changed the gears first and could not believe how much their cars acceleration improved without any other parts swap.
Even though this is a FE Forum I must tell the story of a friends Ford back in the early 70's. He had a decent running 65 Mustang with a 289/200 4-speed. He lightened the car as much as possible without being obvious. Then he installed a set of headers, a strong set of valve springs, and a larger 2 barrel carb off a 390 Mercury. The only other mod he did was to install a set of 4.62 gears with a posi in the 8" housing. This car was very quick and a huge fooler with the 2 barrel carb. Of course he was always able to get a few car lengths head start with the 2 barrel. But the 4.62 gear was what really made the car run strong. He won many, many races in the early 70's on the street. |
| | | RE: Rearend Gearing -- Geoff McNew, 11/10/2003
I second all of the above. A lot of variables here. Car wt., auto/stick, how much cam, and where do you drive the thing - drag strip or a freeway in Texas.
I use 3.91's & a Locker on my '69 Mach 1. It's pretty busy - 3,300 at freeway speed even with 28" tires - and I wish I had a 5th gear. But, it's bang on for humiliating 911SC's out here on the twisty roads of west Marin where you're never gonna have to go over 120. I like Crane's "cruising speed" guidelines for their various cam selections...pick a gear ratio / tire combo that gives you somewhere in that range at freeway speed for the given cam. If you can't live with that, go for less cam & a taller gear, because it sucks to bog. |
| | RE: Rearend Gearing -- giacamo, 11/10/2003
Travis i like 3.25 3.50 for streat use you can find them any whear. thay work wel for a mild bilt fe. |
| | RE: Rearend Gearing -- mikee likee, 11/10/2003
A quick and easy 9" gear change is from a late 70's early 80's 4x4. Or an early 80's 1/2 ton pu with AOD. These all had 3.55 gears, and quite a few of them had traction loc. One of the things I have noticed in non AOD fords is an ultra tight torque convertor. Just a little help in both areas will make a dramatic difference in the acceleration dept. |
| | great cars thanks for the post Lou -- giacamo, 11/10/2003
n/m |
| valve spring compressor -- Geoff McNew, 11/08/2003
Does anyone make a better valve spring compressor for heads-on spring removal than this Manley stamped thing I bought that just bent? |
| | RE: valve spring compressor -- Gerry Proctor, 11/10/2003
Don't know what Manley thing you bought but I assume it was the lever compressor. I've used the tool that attaches directly to the spring with good results. It's pretty slow going but it does work. |
| | | RE: valve spring compressor -- Geoff McNew, 11/10/2003
I used their little L-shaped pry-bar tool. It snapped the fulcrun end which goes under the rocker shaft off. I welded it. It snapped in another spot. I got maybe 1/4" compression on my SINGLE spring before it broke.
You've used the claw-type devices with good luck? I've heared they can bend the springs up. |
| | | | Was it Mikey who said; "Try it, you'll like it?" -- Gerry Proctor, 11/10/2003
Never had a spring bend using that tool, Terry. And springs being... well, spring steel (H-11, Vasco, or whatever) it would be hard to do that without applying a lot of heat.
Besides, there are some heads where there is no other way to remove the spring unless you're willing to take the head off. |
| | | | | RE: Was it Mikey who said; "Try it, you'll like it?" -- Geoff McNew, 11/10/2003
Yea, I guess that's it. Just ordered the snap-on version. However, I was hoping there was a stout lever-type tool like Jesel and Comp Cams make. If I had a Mopile or Chebbie I'd be in luck...wait, that's a contradiction! |
| | | | | | Dont forget -- Ross, 11/11/2003
You have to tap the retainers to break them loose from the keepers or nothing will break it loose. They get gummed up and stick real solid. I have seen professional off-the-car compressors bend like a pretzel if you dont break them free.
I do a gentle tap-tap with a ball peen on the top to break them loose, you'll know when it breaks look, it goes from solid to, well, a springy feel LOL
I bet your original broke because of that |
| | | | | | | RE: Dont forget -- Geoff McNew, 11/11/2003
Nope, I know about rapping the reainers but good with a small socket that clears the stem, and did so. The spring had compressed about 1/4" when the cheapo "tool" snapped.
I'm gonna mail the pieces to Manley. |
| | | | | | | RE: Dont forget -- Geoff McNew, 11/11/2003
Nope, I know about rapping the retainers but good with a small socket that clears the stem, and did so. The spring had compressed about 1/4" when the cheapo "tool" snapped.
I'm gonna mail the pieces to Manley. |
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