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 | oil pump gasket -- ed, 06/22/2004
hello,i recently pulled the oil pump from a 390 i am rebuilding and noticed that there was a gasket btween the oil pump and block. on a prior 390 rebuild there was no gasket between the pump and block. does anyone know if this gasket is mandatory or not? i know the oil pump pickup needs a gasket and i heard if that one is left out the engine will suck air. |
|  | RE: Absolutely does need a gasket. -- Gerry Proctor, 06/22/2004
And make sure you use a sealer on both the pickup and pump gasket. |
| |  | RE: Absolutely does need a gasket. -- ed, 06/22/2004
ok thanks........someone told me never to use the "blue" sealer because it never dries and could get into the oil system. so i always use "black". |
| | |  | Nope. Don't use silicone. -- Dave Shoe, 06/23/2004
Use silicone only when there is no structural support issues, such as at the front and rear of the intake manifold. In most engine, tranny, and differential instances, silicone fails miserably, soon becoming sopped with oil.
Because the pump flexes against the block as vibrations occur, you can be sure the silicone seal, blue or black, will soon absorb oil like a sponge and will dissolve away.
I use permatex gasket sealer, the brown stuff, and prefer the hardening type for this application and especially for sealing 9" differential carriers to sheetmetal axle housing. Other folk know of other sealers which work well. I'm NOT certain that gasket sealer is required in this application, but I have always had good luck with it.
The stock gasket is very thin, and this is important as the oil has much less surface to press sideways against when oil pressure is applied, thus making it unlikely to blow out under pressure.
Just my opinion, Shoe. |
| | | |  | i agree with you dave -- ed, 06/23/2004
i dont know if any sealer is required here either. i believe i have run the pump with gasket and no sealer with success. i would be too worried that sealer would get sucked into pump no matter what kind i used. i heard a story of sealer getting sucked into a pump and causing it to bind and break a cam.(dont know if this is possible or not). thanks again |
| | | | |  | RE: i agree with you dave -- Dale Cecil, 06/23/2004
It was that very gasket which cost me my engine. The rebuilder misaligned it and the gasket material covered the hole where the oil flows through. It would get some oil, but not enough, especially during high rpm's. |
 | new FE rebuild problems -- Kevin, 06/21/2004
Just started a new FE rebuild.
The engine started fine and ran well for about 10 minutes. Some smoke as the gaskets settled in. White smoke from the downdraft tube and oil fill spouts. Running well at 1200 - 1800 rpm. Engine temp building slowly to about 175-180 degrees. Oil pressure right around 55lb.
Only 12 inches of vacuum at the manifold with a new factory spec cam. I think it should be about 15 inches.
About 10 minutes into the break-in run the engine started to backfire through the carb when rpm was below 1800. Engine continued to run fine at 1800 -2000 RPM and decided to continue with break-in run. Engine than began to backfire rapidly in the intake manifold and temp suddenly ran up to 200 degrees.
Killed engine and temp eventually peaked at about 230 degrees. Radiator overflowing at expansion tank.
What happened? Why the low vacuum. Do I have the timing off - maybe the distributor is off a tooth. A bad distributor? Maybe a blown head gasket?
Can anyone help with diagnostics? |
|  | RE: My first thought is: -- Robert, 06/21/2004
Perhaps the valves are too tight (or the pushrods too long if non adjustable)
|
|  | RE: Probably two or more, unrelated issues. -- Gerry Proctor, 06/22/2004
As robert pointed out, you could have too much preload and the lifters are pumping up and hanging the valve open. That could be one cause of the carb backfire. A vacuum gauge will show some rythemic bounce if that's the case. It's also possible that the valves are too tight in the guides and when the engine is reaching operating temp, the valve stems are expanding faster than the guide and are sticking. Though you'd usually hear some rocker noise if that was the case. The carb could also be running lean. A lean misfire will also cause overheating and backfiring.
The overheating and low manifold vacuum are very likely the result of retarded ignition timing. It could also be a significant vacuum leak causing a lean misfire but check the timing first. I always prefer to overadvance on initial fire and adjust as the engine is going through the cam break-in. At 2k rpm with the vacuum advance connected, you shouldn't have any problems with timing between 40 and 50 degrees. Overadvancing the timing causes far fewer issues than retarded timing. I also prefer a fat fuel curve for the same reasons...too rich will make your eyes water but the engine will live until you can dial in the carb and ignition.
So you're looking at significant mechanical issues (excessive lifter preload, valve guides, intake manifold vacuum leak) or some tuning issues (lean carb calibration, retarded timing). I'd go for the tuning issues before you start invasive surgery on the engine. Also, I'd pretty much rule out cam timing since the engine will run fine with an advanced or retarded cam as long as the fuel and spark are right. |
|  | RE: new FE rebuild problems -- Kevin, 06/22/2004
I checked the spark plugs and the right bank (1-4) is running hotter than the left. This engine is in a 60 Tbird and I think I have the heat riser installed wrong. My guess is that this caused the overly hot intake.
I think the distributor may be stabbed in off one tooth too. Will try both of these this week if I get home at a resonable hour.
Keep the ideas coming & thanks
Kevin |
|  | Problem solved -- Kevin, 06/22/2004
Turns out that the heat riser was installed upside down. When the engine heated up it all stayed in the exhasut manifold and eventually in the intake manifild.
|
 | Oil flow problem -- Dano, 06/21/2004
Well, I just had my 390 dynoed last week and everything went great. Except for a problem with the oil pressure and too much oil flow up to the rockers. Oil pressure goes up to 60psi above 4000rpm, but drops down to 25psi or so at idle. I am using the Erson rocker assembly, and I am thinking that it is possible that too much oil is being sent up to the rockers, reducing oil pressure and also causing oil to load up on top of the heads. I am using the Edelbrock heads and am wondering if anyone has any advice, is it ok or should I restrict the oil flow? I am thinking of using a machined plug with an orfice to go into the oil hole under the rocker pedistal to restrict flow. The engine dynoed at 420hp at 5300 rpm with 475 lb ft of torque at 3900rpm. |
|  | What about your oil pan? -- Dave Shoe, 06/21/2004
You failed to mention which oil pan you have in your vehicle. Because of this , I cannot make any valid comments on the matter. The oil pan is the single most important component in a performance FE's oil system. Stock oil pans are great for completlely stock FEs.
You will also need to mention which oil pump you are using. Bearing clearances, if known, would be helpful.
Your numbers seem fine to me, but it sounds like you've likely installed an aftermarket oil pump, and if that's the case, your engine could be in danger.
Shoe. |
| |  | RE: What about your oil pan? -- Dano, 06/21/2004
Thanks for the reply Dave. My oil pump is a new stock one, and I am using a stock pan with a windage tray, putting in 6 quarts of oil. When we first started the engine up on the dyno, it idled for about a minute and the oil pressure started to fluctuate, we shut it down, restarted it and the same thing happened. So we added another quart of oil and from then on the pressure held steady, idling or under full load. We used 10-40 oil. We primed the engine the day before starting it up and I am thinking that the 5 quarts wasn't enough since all of the oil passages and rocker shafts had to be filled up, and the oil filter etc. That probably made the problem worse but I am still worried about starving the bottom end under sustained acceleration or high rpm use. |
| | |  | You've got a solid oiling system baseline. -- Dave Shoe, 06/21/2004
First off, the stock pan is more of a danger when you are accelerating on the road than revving on a dyno. The 428CJ never used a stock pan and windage tray together. The windage tray came about sometime around January 1969 because early CJs were proving to accelerate fast enough to suck the 390 car pan dry and destroy engines, thus the late-CJ pan was customized, the windage tray added, and the dipstick recalibrated.
The two common types of baffling in stock pans either whip the oil toward the sump via a slanted vertical baffle or alternately it shields the oil from the crank to allow it to drain back to the sump with minimum interruption from the crank via a horizontal baffle. Neither prevents oil from dumping to the rear of the engine on a hard launch.
Your oil starvation, as you mentioned, sounds related to starting with a low oil level in the pan. It's logical that more than a quart was consumed from the 5-quart pan when the engine passages and filter were filled upon startup.
The FE, as stock, has an excellent oiling balance. Cammer 427s installed in factory-developed A/FX Mustang dragsters used a stock capacity pump, a fancy pan, and pressure was regulated to 60PSI at all RPMs above 3500RPM (it crept up to 65PSI at 8500 due to insufficient bypassing capacity). There is really no need for serious PSI at idling RPMs because you just ain't straining anything, and the extra flow doesn't help.
I'd focus first on spending at least $96.00 on a Milodon stock replacement pan. Though you have not yet experienced the real weakness of the FE oil pan, the minimum pan Milodon offers is well equipped for basic strip and roadcourse action, so long as acceleration isn't too high. Use your CJ-type windage tray to prevent the crank from blowing excessively on the oil returning to the sump from the drainback shelf and also to help prevent the crank from whipping the sumped oil up the starboard side of the engine and to the back of the engine. Screw the ambiguous "left" and "right", use "port" (drivers side) and "starboard" (passenger side) when describing an engine function.
You can safely start out with just a totally, completely stock FE oiling system (as you have fortunately done) and an aftermarket pan (which you need to do), and hit the dragstrip with success. Topoiling ruled NASCAR before the Cammer, and has never failed to prove it's capability. Any literature that claims otherwise doesn't understand the FE.
Drill passages all ya want, but I'm not gonna recommend it, since it just ain't never needed. Ever. What is needed if you upgrade the pump is a reinforced oil pump driveshaft and also oiling restrictors to the heads. The main reason for upgrading the oil pump is if you open up the bearing clearances a bunch. Oil will gush from the larger clearances a bit faster, though a stock pump will most often be capable of handling all the extra gushing in efficient form, unless you are supercharging, as supercharging allows you to make gobs of horses at low RPMs, and a high-volume pump only comes in handy at low RPMs, since it flows a little more at low RPMs. A stock-volume high-pressure (80 PSI) pump is comforting in a high-horse, high-revving engine, but you must properly restrict certain passages to prevent the extra pressure of this pump from causing oil starvation.
I suspect you've had no oiling damage, since you detected the low oil pan early and at low power levels, you added oil which eliminated the problems, and had no capacity to over-accelerate the pan and dump the sump to the rear of the engine. You have already gotten your money's worth at the dyno. I wish the best for the continued tuning of your engine.
This is mostly unsubstantiated B.S. and all personal opinion that scoffs in the face of most established literature. Please use it carefully and don't be afraid to question it out loud as being flat-out wrong.
Shoe. |
| | | |  | RE: You've got a solid oiling system baseline. -- giacamo, 06/22/2004
dano, dave is right on the money a hi reving fe neads more pan, my experance is a frount sump pan neads to be deaper and hold at lest 2 more quarts of oil. i dont think the pump can suck a stock pan dry, but on acceleration it,s a diferent story.and a deap pan and windage tray is good insurance...... |
| | | | |  | RE: You've got a solid oiling system baseline. -- Dano, 06/23/2004
Thanks for the advice Dave and Giacamo. I will switch to the Milodon pan. |
 | 1966 Q code Mercury Parklane -- L. Taylor, 06/20/2004
I just obtained a !966 2 door Mercury Parklane Q code. The car is complete and origional. Does anyone know where I can get information about production numbers? Is the car worth restoring or is the value only in the 428 drivetrain? Are there any good, reliable websites with info on this car?
Thanks, LT |
 | Block numbers -- Gary, 06/20/2004
My FE block has Ford casting is #c6me. I have a book wrote by George Reid. It claims this #is 68-76 360ci/66-67 410ci/66-68 428ci. Dose this mean i can build any of these engines with this block?If so ,What displacement would you guy's build ? Its for a64 galaxie. |
|  | Most likely it's a 360/390/410 block -- Dave Shoe, 06/20/2004
This old post thoughtfully critiques the book you are referencing:
http://www.jcoconsulting.com/ForumFE/reply.aspx?ID=6226&Reply=6127
In your case, George apes a mistake made in many FE reference books. You've got to do the "drill bit test" to verify you've got the 361/391/428 cylinder jackets stuffed into that block.
C6ME (or any CxME-x marking from 1966-on), is basically a generic marking. It indicates you've got a topoiler block for the FE/FT family, but it does not indicate which sand cores were stuffed into the mold. It may be a 330FT block, a 352 block, a 360/390/410 block, a 361FT/391FT block, a 428 standard block, or a 428PI/CJ block. All are identical on the outside. You can determine which cores were stuffed into the mold by running a few tests, such as the "drill bit test", but you've got to run the whole drill bit test, not just a single cylinder sampling at mid-cylinder.
As mentioned earlier, C6ME on a block simply indicates it's a topoiler FE cast from model year 1966 through about 1972 or so. A sideoiler FE casting of similar markings would have gotten C6AE-A. Note that I'm aware of sideoiler blocks cast with C5AE-G, C5AE-H, C6AE-A, C7AE-A, and C8AE-A. Natch, some later sideoilers have no marks of this type, since the foundry smartly abandoned the practice, since the numbers came to mean approximately nothing sometime before 1966. Blank (unmarked) blocks started showing up at DIF and CF around 1968, but the meaningless DxTE-x markings resurfaced when MCC took over 360/361/390/391 casting duties. DIF never seems to have handed over 427/428 casting duties to MCC, so you'll find the late 427/428 industrial castings were maintained at DIF and were not saddled with the markings. Since FE and FT truck block castings were all machined at Clifford Manufacturing in Clifford Michigan since 1973, it appears Ford did not make contractual arrangements with either MCC or Clifford to handle the larger displacement FEs.
(DIF is Ford's Dearborn Iron Foundry, CF is Ford's Cleveland Foundry, MCC is Ford's brand spanking new Michigan Casting Center)
The "drill bit test" is a work in progress. I'm trying to determine what cylinder jacket sand cores got stuffed into the various FE and FT blocks over the years, and I'm basing my study on a statistical evaluation of the size of the coolant gap found between each cylinder. For gauging, I've selected a cheap set of drillbits which must be incremented in 1/64th steps (commonly available) to achieve the step resolutions I seek. Since I'm fractionally illiterate, I am only capable of comparing drillbit numbers in mistake-free manner when they are converted to the 64th denominator. This means a 1/8" drill bit is called an 8/64" bit, all because I'm sorta dense.
I typically speak of the "drill bit test" numbers in "numerator slang", where "7" means 7-64", "13" means 13/64", and "16" means 16/64".
Note that when probing inside the six core plug holes, I seek to learn the widest reachable gap that a drill bit shank will fit into. Generally, due to "draft angles" and "parting line" issues, the largest gap can be found close to the top of the cylinder (or low in the cylinder if of a certain type of 427 jacket), so you must not simply poke the shank of the bit straight in, but must probe high and low into the core plug for the greatest gap between all eight cylinders. There are more sophisticated ways to statistically correlate cylinder jackets, but this "biggest gap on the block" way is simplest. I simply look for the single largest single gap on a block, not a statistical averaging of all the gaps, or some such alternative.
Note also: One weakness in my method is I collect info on the largest drill bit shank which slips between the cylinders, but it's not exactly intuitive and some imported data may actually arrive in the form of the smallest bit which does NOT fit at any spot between any cylinders on a particular block. This 1/64" discrepancy is recognized as a transitional vagarity which is allowed, but not as likely to occur as the "bit that fits".
I suppose it might help to offer typical cylinder gaps found in various FE blocks.
While you will likely find these numbers using the forum search function with the string "bit test" (use the quotes), this is a summary of how the evaluation sits right now:
The 330FT, 332, 352, 361Edsel, 360, 390, 410 blocks can typically slip a 17 (17/64") drill bit at the largest gap in a block. Variances of 16 and 18 are normal for the largest gap, and I believe 19 and maybe 20 have been noted. This does indicate that the 330FT and 352 blocks make fine 390 blocks, core shift permitting. Obviously, rust plays a factor in the gap size, but I've found fewer than expected numbers of blocks with cylinder rust issues.
I don't know what type of cylinder jacket gaps are found in the 352HP and 390HP castings.
The 361FT, 391FT, 428standard, 428PI/CJ, and some 406 blocks can typically slip a 13 (13/64"), with 12 and 14 also being common.
Some 406 and some 427 blocks seem to be able to slip an 8 (8/64") drill bit shank between the largest gap on the block. This includes cloverleafed cylinders. Unremoved threaded core plugs make this test a difficult one to find samples on.
Some types of 427 blocks seem to fit a remarkable 5 (5/64") shank between the cylinders at the largest gap, but not all cylinders were checked when these samples were taken. This includes cloverleafed cylinders (squared-off corner reinforcements).
When I go to the salvage yard, I carry a 15/64" drill bit, as it'll give me a clear idea what block I'm looking at, without having to precisely determine the gap. The crill bit test is a crude test, and it is incapable of checking for core shift. A sonic mapping of the cylinders will verify core shift issues, but too many sonic maps are not accurate (done by an amateur), so you'll want to cross check the drill-bit test with the sonic map to verify all is sensible.
JMO, Sho |
| |  | RE:Whoa....best bit info yet. -- McQ, 06/20/2004
That I know of and have read. Again, as is often the case, Dave's response is suitable for printing(which is going on as I type this - 3 pages worth).
I do have an original 352HP block with a B9A number that was cast in February, '60. It's stuffed under a storage shelf on the floor for safe keeping-future resto. I will lay the printout I just made on top of it to remind me that I'm should do a full "drill bit" test as per your information. I'm too busy right now(just as my kids always tell me). I'll try to do it sometime real "soon" and I'll post what I find. |
| | |  | RE:352HP bit test -- McQ, 06/21/2004
Dave's post fired me up enough to pull the B9AE short block out from underneath that shelf.
The verdict: a 17/64" drill bit bit snuggly up and down all the external cylinder/water jackets in all six holes. I spent quite a lot of time running the bit up and down the walls and it fit a little looser in a couple of places but was still snug.
So this basically means that this 352HP is capable of taking a .050-.060 overbore without problems. I'm very certain this is the original engine from my '60 Sunliner that's build sheet documented as a High Performance Engine, etc. This block has a casting date of 0B10(Feb. 10, '60) which is just over two months prior to the production date of my car(4/25/60).
I have other 352 4V and 2V '60 Ford parts donors and their blocks are COAE castings. I "think" the B9AE block castings may have been selected for HP use based somewhat on a post Travis Miller made back in '02 about the '59 T-bird blocks being especially hard. It had to do with Kip Martin preferring to use the '59 block for this '64 352 SS/OA Galaxie.
The '60 352HP was the beginning of true Total Performance with the FE. It was a "skunk works" project that slipped under Robert McNamara's tight, strict bean counting management. It's an interesting story how the High Performance program came together. It's a story that I continue to research and find out more a little at a time.
The '61 HP390 block became a very unique casting. This is due to the track experience problems that became prevalent during the '60 NASCAR season. I don't currently have a '61 HP block at my disposal. I hope to someday. But I do have a friend who has a couple of '62 406's and he'll gladly do a drill bit test on them.
We'll get back to you on the 406's. |
| | | |  | RE:352HP bit test -- blinker, 06/21/2004
Did the 360hp 352 have any block or oiling mods? Also, were they all 4bbl, or did later ones have tri carbs? Are the heads special or the same as early FE heads? The first FE hero! |
| | | | |  | RE:352HP bit test -- McQ, 06/22/2004
As for oiling mods to the block...minimal except the oil return from the oil filter adaptor is larger than a standard 352. And the oil filter adaptor itself has had the passages slightly enlargened over a standard. The 352HP blocks are cast for hydrualic lifters too. But of course the cam was the same HP cam used in the future 390HP; 406; and early 427s.
The oil pump was unique with a larger spring. It is the same pump as the C2AE introduced to the 406 and also stock on 428CJs. The oil pick up has a support brace added. The HP pan is about an inch deeper to the rear(not the sump) along with a unique baffle.
The 352HP heads are COAE-D, the same heads carried over into '61 for the 390HP. They have the smallest combustion chamber of any FE head, 58-60cc. What they provided was a compression ratio of 10.6:1 with standard flat top 352 pistions, same 10:6:1 with the '61 dished 390 piston. Standard 352-4V/early 390-4Vs were 9.5:1 with the standard heads. Valve size was the same as standard on the HPs.
The tri power was not available until April of 1961. A mid year option to the HP390 buyer. This fabulous system would bump the 375 horse rating of the HP390 to 401 horses. This complete system came in a box in the trunk of any '61 Ford so ordered. The early '62 Fords was available with the 375/401 HP390 through December of '61. By this time though they had their own unique VIN (M) and the tri power was installed at the factory. The 4 speed was also factory installed by '62 also.
I could go on and on about the '60/'61 but I'll stop boring you with this windy post.
Did you know that it was the '61 HP that first saw the front cross over brake line get routed to the front, over the frame brace just behind the radiator and back to the right front wheel?
Pop quiz time class: Why was the brake line run like that for the '61 HP and all future through '64 big Fords/Mercs with HP engines? |
| | | | | |  | thanks for some history on the first Fero -- blinker, 06/22/2004
but you got me on those brake questions I don't know if pictures can be posted on this forum, but if so, how about some of the old Starliner? |
| | | | | |  | RE:352HP bit test -- Tony P., 06/22/2004
I beleive it was to keep the brake fluid from boiling because the cast iron headers were too close to the line when it was routed on the crossmember. |
| | | | | |  | RE:352HP bit test -- John, 06/23/2004
I 'm going to spoil your fun Mike and answer your pop quiz question Ford learned the hard way on the Nascar tracks that on the few occasions that the mighty FEro motors blew that sometimes shrapnel came thru the oilpan and shredded the brakeline that was so coveniently placed in the line of fire directly below the engine.Back in the days of single resevoir master cylinders this immediately translated into no brakes.So there you go now we have a quick and obvious clue to tell if that 61 or later HP car is really an HP.Of course someone with the knowledge and the inclination could still fake it with considerable effort,but the VIN will still tell the tale |
| | | | | | |  | RE:Tony has a point -- McQ, 06/24/2004
Okay John you get an -A- code on the quiz. But Tony makes a good point about the line getting hot due to the proximity to the HP manifolds. There might be some credibility to that if the Police Package FE cars of '61-'64 have the brake line run around the front like the HP cars. I know a guy who has a '64 -P- code 390 shell. It was a complete car that he bought years ago just to get the engine/exhaust manifolds for his '60 Starliner. He still has access to the '64. I'm going to ask him to have a look next time I talk to him.
I've never actually read anything specific on the brake front cross over brake line difference. I was told my a guy who seemed to know his stuff about early HP Galaxies. He'd owned a few and brought this feature up as something to watch for when checking out a supposed HP '61-'64 Ford/Merc.
Hey thanks Gary for allowing me to go way off the subject on your original question. |
| | | | | | | |  | RE:Tony has a point -- Tony P., 06/24/2004
I got my info from an old time Ct. State Police mechanic, they had some problems with the 60 Galaxie and this is what Ford had them do to correct the problem, they also had some non interceptor cars for the brass and of course they didn't like having the non HP motors so when they swapped one in they had to change the brake lines because of the overheating problems. Since 61 cast iron headers and the relocated brake line go hand in hand. I would think that the guys building stock cars would redo the brake systems anyway but Ford had to sell these cars to the public. |
| | | | | | | | |  | RE:Tony has a good point -- McQ, 06/24/2004
Thanks Tony, you've added to the info on these cars. I will definitely check that '64 390 -P- code car.
I wasn't sure if the '60 Police package got the new for '60 HP exhaust manifolds. I know the '61 390 -P- code did. |
| | | | | | | | | |  | RE:Tony has a good point -- Tony P., 06/24/2004
I don't know if the "police package" had the cast iron headers in 60 but this old guy had some neat pictures. He showed me a 60 starliner chase car they had with the 352/360 and although it's not listed in the books they had 59 Fords with the 430 Lincoln motor, he had the pictures to prove it. And yes the P Code cars have the rerouted brake line, I'm looking at one right now. |
| | | | | | | | | | |  | RE:-P- code brake line -- McQ, 06/24/2004
Thanks for the heads up regarding the -P- codes having the rerouted r-front lines.
After I posted that last response I remembered that I have a '60 Police Car brochure along with the '61. The '60 pic of the -P- code 352 does not show the HP shorties but the '61 does. However, I do believe the '60 352 -P- code may have received the HP manifolds during the year.....pure speculation.
And then I did crawl under my '60 which has the original HP ex. manifolds, that now has 2 1/2" pipes, just to see how close the cross over brake line is to the manifolds/pipes. There's at least two inches of space between the cross over line and the manifold/head pipe. It's the left front brake line that runs from the brass junction over the left frame rail to the L-front brake hose that's very close to the manifold/head pipe - approximately one inch!
All in all, I do believe your information is credible. As I said, what I know about the development of the '60 and on high performance packages is that they were constantly changing - Total Performance! Ford was doing the right thing in constantly testing and improving from their on track experiences.
Makes you wonder what Ford is learning from the 351W, top loader style trans, nine inch rear end all wrapped in a plastic fantastic two door Taurus body running on (Yawn) NASCAR now?
Wouldn't it have been cool back in the sixties to have seen an all plastic shell running with a fully built flat head!! And a '39 Ford box stuffed with Zepfer gears. A quick change rear end.....I hope you can readily see my sarcasm here. I loved all the old Flatty stuff - in its day and it still has a place.
Currently NASCAR is a huge marketing strategy. I would be interested if Ford was running a current real car with a current power plant. In other words - a Total Performance concept! |
| | | | | | | | | | | |  | Cool info. -- Dave Shoe, 06/24/2004
I learned a few neat things here.
I do suspect there were no 1960 352 police cars which came with the HP exhaust manifolds as part of the package. The philosophy of police engines back then was economy and reliability, and Ford did not even offer a specific "police" version of the FE until 1961, choosing instead to drop the 352-4V into most high-end police cruisers from 1958-60. Special treatment came in the form of the 361 Edsel FE getting stuffed into a Ford police vehicle.
Cost was critical in getting police contracts, so I don't think Ford would have installed HP headers into 1960 police cars unless the particular police department wished to buy a few sets in an "over the counter" kind of fashion. HP headers would have simply ate into profits, since most of the contracts would have been priced and signed during the log-exhaust days.
The first police-specific FE showed up in 1961 with the birth of the 390, and I'm certain the HP exhausts were added only because of the sex-appeal which helped sell contracts. The 390PI still got skinny rods, iron intakes and mild mechanical cams, and did NOT get the cam, carb, intake, or compression of the 390HP engine. The 390PI was an affordable engine.
Cost was King in selling police contracts in the early 1960s, and Ford was on top in that game.
JMO, Shoe. |
|  | RE: Block numbers -- Bob, 09/23/2004
I have an 89 mustang. I pulled the engine to rebuild. I know it is not the stock engine. I am trying to figure out what it is? The numbers stamped on the top of the block is XXX53. There is nothing stating 302 or 5.0 Pistons are larger than a 5.8. Push rods and stroke are short. Can you possibly help me identifying this block. Thank You. Bob |
 | Is a 750 holley double pumper too big for a 390? -- Steve M, 06/20/2004
I have a stock 1970 390 with an edelbrock performer manifold and headers. I can get a good deal on a holley 750 double pumper but I didnt know if this was too much gas for my motor. Anybody have any input? I do have a 391 gear in the rear and it is in a big ole galaxie if that makes any difference. The cam is stock also. |
|  | I have a 650 holley on it now. n/m -- Steve M, 06/20/2004
n/m |
| |  | RE: I have a 650 holley on it now. n/m -- greg, 06/20/2004
I think you'll be happier with the 650 you have now, since you have the stock cam and especially if you have an automatic with the stock converter. Never hurts to have a 750 laying around for future use though. |
|  | 3.91:1 rear and a plain Performer? -- Dave Shoe, 06/20/2004
That intake is an oinker. It stinks for performance. If you want to see any benefits with that 750DP, you must upgrade to a Performer RPM.
I assume you've got a 9.5:1 compression car engine, not an 8.5:1 pickup truck 390. The extra compression of the car will be good for the 750, but you really need to add a cam kit (includes cam, lifters, valve springs, and you'll soon learn the valve spring retainers and valves also gotta go if upgraded) if you wish any balance in performance.
Double pumpers have a nice feel, but they also suck a lot of gas. In your present build, you'll se mileage drop, but you will not see performance improve, since you are bottlenecked in other areas.
It seems to me some FPA headers which port-match C8AE-H heads, a cam kit, and an RPM intake would make that Galaxie ready for that 750DP. Mileage would still drop, but performance will climb. 650 would also be a fine carb.
JMO, Shoe. |
| |  | RE: 3.91:1 rear and a plain Performer? -- Steve M, 06/21/2004
Thanks for the insight. I thought it may be too big, but had to check with the FE people here... |
 | 390 Mach 1 problems -- Scott A. Ekleberry, 06/19/2004
Tossing this around on the various forums in a hope to get some help.
Finally got the 390 in the Mach and got it running. Trans. went out 5 minutes later (and the blasted thing has headers!). Even though we ran it for at least 20-25 minutes to break in the cam and engine it is still smoking like you know what. I'm positive all the pistons are in the right bores (he stamped them on top as to which bore they go in), I filed the rings as directed, made sure the rings were spaced opposite on the pistons (cast rings). This engine is balanced and it has new or reconditioned everything (all ARP bolts/studs and Fel-Pro gaskets, Clevite bearings, etc.). Only 2 places I can think the oil could come from are the rings or the valves at the top (new valves, rebushed guides, new seals, etc.). I put in a HV oil pump, could the oil be coming down the valves?? It does have a Performer RPM intake with C6AE-R heads and the corresponding correct Fel-Pro intake gaskets so I'm pretty sure the oil isn't getting in there. If anyone has any ideas (and a set of exhaust manifolds to fit a 390 in a 67-70 Mustang, don't want to fight with those damn headers again!) let me know!! Thanks!
Scott |
|  | RE: 390 Mach 1 problems -- Tony P., 06/19/2004
Scott, a common problem when using HV oil pump is flooding the heads with oil and sucking it down the guides, put an old holley main jet anysize from#75- 90 in the oil feed under the rocker stand. This will supply more than an adequate oil flow to the rockers. Also check to make the return passages are clear and a glob of silicone or gasket sealer is not obstructing the flow. You mentioned fel pro intake gaskets, there have been some problems with the print o seal fel pros failing and sucking in oil. Look at the post below by Salid on 6/16, it shows a picture of a sucked in fel pro.: http://www.jcoconsulting.com/forumfe/reply.aspx?ID=21843&Reply=21843 |
| |  | RE: 390 Mach 1 problems -- Scott A. Ekleberry, 06/20/2004
Thank you for the reply. I will pick up a set of the intake gaskets listed and see if that solves my problem. I certainly don't want to pull the engine out if it is not necessary! :)
Scott |
|  | Update! -- Scott A. Ekleberry, 06/22/2004
I pulled the intake today. The Fel-Pro intake gaskets were NOT what is causing the oil burning, they were sealed all the way around every port (you could see the impression where they sealed). The oil is coming down the intake valves, it was actually laying on top of the intake valves in pools! My mechanic friend came over and looked at it for about 25 minutes. Evidentially I am getting so much oil to the top of the heads that it is just being sucked down the intakes. I did have a valve job, new CJ size valves, new guide liners, and new seals installed. He used good seals, but they are not the little white PC seals that you must machine the heads for. I think without all that oil they may work fine.
We are going to put some 70 size Holley jets in the oil holes feeding the rockers (smaller may even be better after what I saw!!). Any comments here are welcome. I am running a Melling high-volume oil pump with oil mods to the bottom of the block (to force more oil to the main gallery).
Scott |
 | Engine & Transmission Colors -- Gary, 06/19/2004
Hey Guys! Would anyone be able to help me with paint colors in a 1964 Galaxie? What color would the bell housing and transmission be on a 4-speed manual transmission? Did they paint the transmission or did they leave it natural? Engine color (390) and engine add on component colors?
Thanks! |
|  | RE: Engine & Transmission Colors -- Tony P., 06/19/2004
Colors 1964 390
Engine - black Bellhousing- unpainted natural cast iron Trans.- unpainted natural cast iron Valve covers and and cleaner- Gold |
 | Part Identification -- Gary, 06/19/2004
Thanks for the information but I have another qusestion. On the C4AE heads, these heads are matched to a 1964 four barrel intake(4d1) in my 64 galaxie. What aluminun after market intake works well with these heads?Why dose the engine have 352 #on it if it was a 390?( 06me 352) |
|  | RE: Part Identification -- russ, 06/19/2004
i would use a edlebrock duel plane, all fe motors have 352 on them don;t know why. i;d use ford blue and semi gloss black |
 | Cylinder heads and oiling -- Dale Cecil, 06/18/2004
Some time ago I heard someone talking ( I can't remember who it was) about inserting some sort of a restricting device into the cylinder head of my 390 engine. This person said that the FE slung way too much oil up top to the rockers, and therefore was prone to leaking around the valve covers.
Has anyone else heard this, and can you clarify for me. I am in the process of rebuilding my engine, and would like to make modifications and upgrades where practical.
Thanks Dale |
|  | Oil flow -- raycfe, 06/19/2004
Restrictor in the oil passage for the rockers is easy and a very good thing. I use an old holly main jet, just drop in the hole and put the rockers back on. Have thousands of miles on motors like this and works great. Need a jet with a hole about .075 to .090 on an inch. |
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