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 |  Later 427 SO Blocks -- MikeK, 03/14/2006
A while ago I bought a Boss 429 from former Funny Car crew chief Dee Keaton. The subject came around to 427 side oiler blocks. Dee said that he had much better luck with the earlier 65-66 blocks as the later 68 hyd. blocks had a tendancy to split up through the mains and into cam and lifter area. These were obviously stressed as he was running nitro, but this is the first that I've ever heard this. Anyone else heard that for a failure? All I've heard has been Dove's claim that the Marine blocks had thicker cylinders.
For those of you that might not know Keaton, he crew chiefed the Stone Woods and Cook F/C, some for Pulde, and the M/T Titanium Pinto. Unbelievably down to earth guy with a ton of knowledge. He had the Boss motors figured out when M/T was too stubborn to listen. |
|  | RE: Voice of experience. -- Gerry Proctor, 03/15/2006
In the Internet age, practical experience seems to count for less than in the old days.
In perspective, you're talking about an application that the engine was never engineered for so failures of this kind are to be expected.
But the main web cracking to the cam bore also occurs in non-nitro FE applications as well. In fact, it's not at all uncommon in engines that have lived a hard life. That's why it's always a good plan to include a mag test before good money changes hands in a vintage iron transaction.
I've never heard of a structural difference between the solid and hydraulic sideoiler blocks, but that doesn't mean anything since I don't have the level of experience (if Keaton had five seconds to spare, I could tell him everything I know about the FE) that Keaton does.
It's also not an FE exclusive. Main web failure is the most common structural failure going. That's why aftermarket race blocks always feature beefed up main webs and bulkheads. |
 | Dove Hi-Riser -- MikeK, 03/14/2006
Does anyone know if Dove is still making the high-riser heads in aluminum? Has anyone ever run one of the tunnel wedge high riser intakes? |
 | 428 dyno results -- Paul Lovett, 03/12/2006
Dyno-ed my 428 yesterday. It was a DTS engine dyno that K&M Machine in Raytown, Mo just bought.
Motor spec's:
-432 cid (4.155"x3.98")
-850 double pumper (76/76 jets) milled choke horn
-Blue Thunder dual plane intake
-1" four hole spacer, 3-1/2" K&N filter
-Edelbrock heads (2.09"/1.66") ported to 303/218 cfm
-10.5:1 compression
-37 degrees total timing
-Solid flat tappet with 270/276 advertised duration, 240/246 @ 0.050", 108 LSA, 107 ICL, .598/.608" lift
-2" Crites headers
Final combo made 517 hp at 6200 rpm and 521 lb./ft. at 4200 rpm.
Initial pull was 484 hp and 512 lb./ft.
The biggest gains were from carb jetting and carb spacers. We started at 76/82 jetting, went to 80/82 and lost 10 hp. Went to 78/78 gained 5 hp. Went to 76/76 and gained 9 more hp. Based on BSFC numbers, we didn't want to go any leaner.
It liked taller spacers and liked the 4 hole best. We tried an open spacer and lost a few hp everywhere. We didn't rejet for the open spacer, though. Judging by the BSFC numbers, the open spacer leaned the mixture. We might've been able to get more hp out of it, but I like the 4 hole spacer for street driving so I didn't pursue it. Ended up gaining 2-3 hp and 10-12 lb/ft with the spacer I used.
The ignition timing happened to be right on the money (37 to 38 total) initially so I didn't gain anything there.
Didn't gain much varying valve lash. Tightening the lash a few thousandths would gain maybe 4-5 hp at high rpm and lose 4-5 hp at low rpm. No surprise there. I ended up using the Compcams recommendation of 0.0018" lash hot. That equals about 0.0013" lash cold with my aluminum heads.
Switching from 1-3/4" Hooker Supercomps to 2" Crites headers gained about 5 hp and 5 lb./ft. The bigger primaries on the Crites were balanced with significantly longer tubes so power gained everywhere. Honestly 1-7/8" might be the ideal tube diameter for my combo, but the 2" tubes work good and will allow for more hp in future. Plus the 3.5" collectors gave me an excuse to upgrade my exhaust system to 3.5" pipes and mufflers. :)
Switching to snythetic 20-50W oil from regular 20-50W oil got about 5-7 hp at the top end.
Total hp gain for the day was about 30 depending on what run we use for the baseline.
By the end of the day the torque at 3000 improved from 408 lb/ft to 456 lb/ft, and it passes 500 lb/ft at 3500 so it should be fun on the street.
Paul
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| | RE: 428 dyno results -- Big Dave, 03/12/2006
Impressive! What is it going in? What will the rest of the drivetrain be? how long did it take you to build? ...what kind of budget did you have for the motor? |
| |  | RE: 428 dyno results -- Paul Lovett, 03/12/2006
Thanks! It is going in a '67 Cougar, all steel, with 3.25 rear gear, C6 with wide ratio gearset, TCI Breakaway convertor (~2800 stall). I actually drove the motor for about 200 miles before the shop offered to dyno my motor for free. How could I refuse? 1st gear was just about useless with the 255 Radial T/A's. It would fry the tires at any speed up to 55 mph so you had to roll into throttle, but then by the time you got to full throttle it was time to shift. Anyway, it's fun. I'm not exactly looking forward to putting the motor back in. I am looking forward to driving it with 30 more hp and 50 lb./ft. more torque.
The dyno was definitely worth the time
The motor has been coming together for a couple of years. It came out of the car once as it was burning lots of oil at the back two cylinders and we couldn't figure it out without disassembly. It ended up being that the machine shop put an intake manifold dowel pin too close to an intake port and it broke through letting oil flow into the ports and out the exhaust.
As for budget I really don't know. More than I'd like to think about.
-bare CJ block needing sleeve $175
-428 crank- $300
-bare Edelbrock heads $950
-Blue Thunder intake $425
-Holley 850 $400
-Headers plus ceramic coating $550
-pistons $640
-CJ rods $0 (I had these)
-machine work, head porting and head hardware maybe $2000
-rocker shafts and rocker arms$350
-pushrods $90
-cam and lifters $400
Ah hell, see what you made me do. I'm up to $6400 and there's still lots of odds and ends to add on. And now I know how much I spent! Dang!. So maybe $7000 when all is said and done. I thought it was going to be more like $5000. Oh well. :)
Paul |
| | | | 517 HP... Priceless... -- Big Dave, 03/13/2006
Sounds Great! Have you considered roller tip rockers? Crane, Erson, and Comp all have some aluminum ones between $250-$900. That might get you another 20-30 HP. How about a windage tray? ...another 10 HP. All in all, it's sounds like a great motor, wish it was going in my truck. |
| | | | | RE: 517 HP... Priceless... -- Paul Lovett, 03/13/2006
It's got roller tip rockers, but they are Harland Sharps. I'd rather have the Ersons, but the Harland Sharps seem to be working well.
I forgot to mention it's got a windage tray, too. The oil pan is the Milodon 7 quart deep pan with baffles. I use a Melling high volume oil pump and heavy duty oil pump shaft.
It has Crower "dumbell" lifters with the "cool face" option. That is the one with the direct oiling hole at the lifter/cam interface.
I did not plug the oil passages to lifters like many people do when running solid lifters in a hydraulic block. It has 80-85 psi cold and about 30 psi hot at idle. I did use .090" oil restrictors below the rocker shafts to limit oil to the top end.
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm always interested in picking up a few more hp.
Paul |
| | RE: 428 dyno results -- Hal, 03/24/2006
Could you give any specifics on fuel you were using? My 428 is built very similar to yours with the exception of the cam. Cam is .579 lift in/ex. 236/236- 296/296 dur. Edelbrock heads/RPM manifold. 3" full exhaust through Flowmaster Big-Block muffs. Seems very down on power. 340-360hp. Motor is in excellent shape. Great comp.,leakdown good.
Thanks |
| | | RE: 428 dyno results -- Paul Lovett, 03/24/2006
On the dyno we used straight race gas initially. Then went to a 50/50 mixture of race gas and 92 octane street gas. We were going to go to straight 92 octane, but we found the motor liked only 37 degrees total timing. That is the advance I had been running it on the street with straight 92 octane unleaded anyway so I didn't worry about it. It hasn't had any detonation issues so far. This summer will be a better test, but I'm not worried about it.
It was dyno-ed with open headers because the mufflers wouldn't fit around the dyno
What are the other spec's on your motor? Are the heads ported? Compression? Carb? Headers?
Nobody seems to like the Edelbrock cams. It is definitely an "old school" grind with slow ramps (lots of advertised duration, not so much duration @ 0.050"). Still you ought to be able to get at least 425-450 hp I would think. Did you degree the cam? Maybe it's way retarded.
Did you dyno your motor or does it just feel down on power?
Paul |
| | | | RE: 428 dyno results -- Hal, 03/25/2006
All of the calcs that I've used based on 1/4mile trap speed (102),gearing (4:11), slick dia.(30") vehicle weight w/driver (4100) best e.t. (13.38) puts the hp in the 350 range on pump gas but it rattled with detonation something fierce. Mixed 114 octane 50/50 with 92 unleaded. Everyone noticed huge difference in idle quality. Snapped axle 2nd pass out during what I thought was a very light footed launch. Best ever 60' that night.
1.9 60'
432ci
Out of box Edelbrock heads and RPM manifold
MSD 6AL/ Blaster coil
10.55 comp
Holley 800DP with Proform Main body
Jets are way fatter than yours...80/84.
Will play there first.
Timing 36 total
Thanks for the insight. Also, what make/grind is your camshaft? Is it a Lunati? Specs are identical to cam recommended by Steve at Lunati for my motor. |
| | | | | RE: 428 dyno results -- Paul Lovett, 03/25/2006
Well, I think you're on the right track looking at jetting. My motor gained 24 hp going from 80/82 jets to 76/76 jets. I was way too rich.
How about the plugs? Have you looked at them right after a run?
My cam is a Compcams custom grind. It is a solid lifter flat tappet. The intake lobe is a 270XTQ and the exhaust lobe is a 276TL. The lobes have very aggressive ramps and require a lot of spring pressure for a flat tappet. I use Crane 99895 springs. The open spring pressure is 425 lbs. I don't know how long the valve springs will last or how long the cam itself will last. Definitely not a 100,000 mile cam.
Since solid cams and hydraulic cams don't equate apples to apples on duration it's a little harder to compare our cams. My rule of thumb is to subtract 8 degrees of duration @0.050" from a solid cam to get an equivalent hydraulic cam. So my 240/246 duration would be similar to a 232/238 hydraulic cam in terms of power range. So what I am getting at is your 236/236 hydraulic cam is like a 244/244 solid and a 240/246 hydraulic would be like a 248/354 solid cam. Maybe too big for an application in a 4100 lb. car?
Anyhoo, a cam with faster ramps would help low end torque to get the car moving.
Also, I haven't had my car to the track yet. It should run 115-117 mph in the quarter according the dyno results, but who knows? Maybe It'll actually run 105 mph. It's just hard to compare my dyno results with your track results.
Sorry to write a book. Hope my rambling helps. I think you have good basic parts. Keep tuning and I bet you'll get where you want to be. Let us know how it turns out.
Paul |
| 428 Vibration -- Max, 03/12/2006
Hi, I have just being trying to get rid of a engine vibration. The engine is a 428 in a GT500. It felt like it was not running on all 8 cylinders, but also felt like a engine vibration.
I advanced the distributor up to about 42 degree’s and it smoothed it out alot until I ran out of adjustment. Does this should right ?
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| | RE: 428 Vibration -- John, 03/12/2006
Sounds like a cylinder not getting spark....check plug wires, plugs and dist cap. Advancing the timing may mask the misfire, as all the other cylinders will not be smooth with that much advance. Sadly, advancing the timing puts more pressure on the rod bearings which may account for minimizing the vibration should a rod bearing have gone the way of the do-do. But ignition is still the most likely culprit. A collapsed lifter might do the same thing if you manage to rule out the ignition. |
| | RE: 428 Vibration -- Gerry Proctor, 03/13/2006
Vibrations can be tough to diagnose. They can be in the tuneup or in the mechanicals.
Tuneup related vibrations will usually occur under very specific conditions and are not generally RPM-related.
Mechanical vibrations or harmonics are usually related to rpm. They can be anything from a broken engine mount, the wrong flywheel, an engine componen imbalance, or even in the accessory drives. These type vibrations usually show up at a trigger rpm and get worse as the engine rpm goes up.
You have to be very specific and leave no clues out when you're trying to get these figured out.
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| | | RE: 428 Vibration -- Martin Micheelsen, 03/14/2006
This is a long shot.
If the heads were milled and the block was decked and the original push rods reinstalled the valves may have a hard time closing a 100% because the geometry has changed and that might show up worse at higher rpms. If that is the case some shims under the rocker stands can work wonders.
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| | RE: 428 Vibration -- Hal, 03/21/2006
Any blue smoke out of tailpipe? (or any more than usual?) My 428 sucked an intake gasket. All tests mentioned in previous posts when motor had similar symptoms did not pinpoint problem. |
| | | RE: 428 Vibration -- Max, 03/21/2006
Thanks everyone, i replaced the standard rocker arm assemby with a set of ajustables and its still the same. Did a compresion test and its all around 170 - 180 on a cold engine. I think i have done everything i can do from a tuneing point. I am going to pull the engine. The first thing i will do is send the Fly wheel and pressure plate of to the balancers. Then if that comes back ok i will tear it down and have a look inside. |
| Help! Torque converter leaking radiator fluid -- Dirk Hofman, 03/11/2006
I have 67 Mustang with a 390 in it. I am getting it ready for this spring and I noticed that radiator fluid is leaking from what appears to be the torque converter. Any ideas? What should I do?
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| | RE: Yes. Look closer. -- Gerry Proctor, 03/11/2006
It's not likely for the torque converter to leak radiator coolant. It would leak transmission fluid if it leaked anything.
It's possible for coolant to cross-contaminate into the transmission through the trans cooler in the radiator tank, but your transmisison would be dead before you saw a anything leak.
Your coolant leak is probably coming from the heater hoses or fittings or maybe a core plug.
Just start going over everything carefully. |
| | RE: Help! Torque converter leaking radiator fluid -- Dirk Hofman, 03/11/2006
Ok, I have looked closer and I still cannot tell where the leak is coming from. I am sure that it is pure radiator fluid. No transmission fluid. It looks like it is coming from the inside of the Lakewood bellhousing I have. Any other ideas? |
| | | RE: Help! Torque converter leaking radiator fluid -- giacamo, 03/11/2006
thear are no freez plugs in the back of a 390 for antifreez to leak from.did it get cold and the antifreez is weak, and the block crack?if you have coolant coming from the back of the engin you have a mess on your hands.i,d hope you are mistaken of whear the leak is.... |
| | | Oh-oh ! -- John, 03/11/2006
I hope I am wrong in that this might apply to your engine....but here's my story. I once had a 428 develop a crack in the block, and antifreeze got into the engine oil. Any head or intake gasket problem will do the same thing. When I dismantled the engine, I found a substantial amount of antifreeze in the space between the back end of the camshaft and the press in cam plug. If your vehicle has this problem, and the water/antifreeze rusted a hole in this plug, you do indeed "have a mess" on your hands. First thing I would do, is to check your engine oil for rad fluid.....drain it if you have to. |
| | | | ps: an easier problem to fix..... -- John, 03/11/2006
I get some oil dripping out of my lakewood bellhousing, yet there is no leaks from the back of my engine. It is oil from the front of the enigne being blown back and getting in the bellhousing via the three cooling holes in the scattershield faceplate...then dripping down inside the bellhousing area. Maybe look up front to see if your trnsmission cooling lines are "wet".....i.e. "leaking". It could be antifreeze from another area being blown back while the car is in motion. |
| | False Alarm? Maybe -- Dirk Hofman, 03/12/2006
I changed the oil yesterday (had to anyway) there was no antifreeze in the oil. Whew!!
I cleaned up the visible antifreeze that was on the undercarriage of the car. I then took the car out for about a 30 minute plus drive. I stopped once during driving to look, and looked again when I got home. No antifreeze! I will keep my eye on it, however it is very possible it was some residule left over from a day last year when the radiator cap was not on correctly and had leaking that went all over while I was driving (a situation John refered to). Thanks all for your input. If things act up again, I will be back!
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| 1960 ranch wagon rear hatch rubber -- Gary, 03/10/2006
I am looking for the rear hach window gasket for a 1960 ranch wagon. does anyone know as to where i can get one? i have tried every where, Soft Seal, Steele Rubber Co.
Please any help would be great. |
| WIW? Cobra Jet Oil Cooler Set-up? -- Junkman, 03/10/2006
The guy that I got my CJ engine has put me in touch with a guy that has a few CJ parts left over from his Ford days. He parted out a wrecked 69 CJ Mustang back in the 70's and still has some parts left. He has a complete external oil cooler including the block adapter, cooler and lines. I don't know what condition it all is in because I have not seen it yet (maybe sunday) He also has the hood scoop in green from this car Non-shaker with the 428CJ emblems. He MAY have the breather parts but he will have to look. Can you guys give me a good idea of what a correct complete CJ oil cooler set-up would be worth provided it is in decent shape?? |
| Need help with with fuel pump please? -- K-Ski, 03/10/2006
I'm building a 390FE with around 350 horse and a 650 carb. All I can find for machanical fuel pumps is a Carter 120 gl with 6psi, & Holley 110gal with around 7psi, both with 1/4" inlet/outlet ports? My fuel line from the fuel tank on my 65 F-100 looks like 1/4" line also!
To me a 1/4" in & out ports, and fuel line is too small for 350 horse, but this is my first FE build up. My gut is telling me to just try the Carter?
Or should I just install new 3/8" line from the fuel tank and go electric pump?
Please can someone help me out with this, I'm lost on what to do with these few options?
Thanks for anyones reply...............K-SKI |
| | RE: Need help with with fuel pump please? -- Royce P, 03/10/2006
The Carter pump comes with 1/4" NPT fittings, IE = "National Pipe Thread".
You use 1/4" NPT fittings that screw into the fuel pump that are made for 3/8" ID rubber tube.
Carter # M6905 is what I always use.
Royce |
| | | RE: Need help with with fuel pump please? -- K-Ski, 03/10/2006
Thanks Royce, that couldn't be any easier. I just wasn't sure if I'd be choking my fuel with them 1/4" ports.
Just wondering Royce, on some of your FE's running that Carter (m6905) pump, whats the highest horse power, using that pump.
And one last question, my f-100 looks to have 1/4" fuel line from gas tank to the pump, would you replace it with 3/8" line, or will the 1/4" be fine?
Thanks Royce for your help! |
| | | | RE: Need help with with fuel pump please? -- Royce P, 03/11/2006
Your truck had 5/16" line originally if it is 1967 model year or older. In 1968 I believe Ford went to 3/8" fuel line for all vehicles.
You need to go to a 3/8" pickup in the tank or the line size won't matter.
Right now I have a 454 CI (427 center oiler based) that makes around 450 HP, a 448 CI (427 side oiler based) makes maybe a bit more, a 427 side oiler that is stock 390HP but with a bit more cam so lets say 425 HP, and am building a 430 CI side oiler that ought to be 500 HP. I have not run any of them on a dyno but the 448 CI engine runs high 12 / low 13 seconds in the 1/4 mile at 3700 pounds with me on board. That's on FR70 X 14 street radials driving like you are on ice in first gear.
All use the M6905 or 4441S which is the same. All the cars have 3/8" fuel line except the '67 Cougar which has the 454 CI engine and 5/16" line. I have not run it at the strip but it may be marginal, don't know until I try it.
Come to the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags in Michigan this year and watch me run high 12's at 108 - 110 MPH on skinny bias ply tires.
Royce |
| | | | | Muscle drags ! -- K-Ski, 03/12/2006
Wow Royce, you really know how to get the most punch out of an FE with those large cubes! With your knowledge on high power units you should know what that Carter pump is capable of doing. Thanks for sharing that info with me.
You said your going to try your 454 Cougar w/ 5/16" line and 450HP. Let me know how it works for ya. I may try the 5/16" with my 350HP and just to see how it does. Can always swap it out for 3/8" line.
Those Muscle drags sound so much fun, I just wish Michigan was closer to Nebraska!
Thanks so much for all your help Royce! |
| Cobra Jet Block VIN Stamp ID?? -- Junkman, 03/09/2006
I've been pouring over the 428CJ I picked up recently and I did find a partial VIN on the back. It is very hard to read and I have not cleaned the block yet but it looks like 9A278892. Can anyone tell me what info can be obtained from this number?? The snake valve covers on the engine were C9ZE 6583 B which accordign to the SCAA site are for 69 GT-500's. The 428CJ website lists all valve covers as C9ZE 6582 A or B. does that mean the valve covers are Shelby only numbers? Any help please? |
| | For sure not from a Shelby -- Royce P, 03/10/2006
The A means the engine was installed in a car buit at the Atlanta GA assembly plant.
Atlanta made exactly zero Shelbys. It is a 428 from a full size Mercury or Ford.
None of those cars came with aluminum valve covers.
Royce |
| | | RE: For sure not from a Shelby -- Mark V, 03/10/2006
Were any Cobra Jet car built in Atlanta in 1969?
Junkman, did you just get the CJ engine or did it come in a car? Does it have the correct CJ heads, exhaust manifolds and intake?
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| | | | RE: For sure not from a Shelby -- Junkman, 03/10/2006
The engine came complete with correct date coded CJ heads, CJ intake and waterpump, pistons, cam, pushrods, lifters, all bolts, timing cover with correct pointer, 1UB crank, lemans rods, adjustible rockers, rocker oil drip guards, incorrect fuel pump, correct CJ windage tray, CJ balancer and spacer, CJ flexplate with Tq Conv., Plus engine mounted Z-bar bracket, original Snake Valve covers, pulleys and alt brackets, and a correct but damaged oil pan.
All of the stuff with the exception of the fuel pump is correct dates for the engine build date of June 21, 1969. I have not pulled the pistons yet to get the #'s off of the Lemans rods or pistons. |
| | | | | Maybe a Fairlane or Comet or Cyclone? -- Royce P, 03/10/2006
I don't know for sure but maybe those were made at the Atlanta assembly plant. You can get a Marti Report and it will tell you for sure what kind of car the block came in.
Royce |
| | | Not exactly. For '69, Atlanta Assembly built Intermediates. [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/10/2006
n/m |
| oem Ford FE aluminum oil pump -- jon, 03/09/2006
I'm trying to find out what the original application of an aluminum oil pump I removed from a 390 is. The casting # is C8AE-6604-C. Thanks. |
| | RE: oem Ford FE aluminum oil pump -- Royce P, 03/10/2006
All FEs came with an aluminum oil pump that were installed in production vehicles. Aftermarket pumps are cast iron.
Royce |
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