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 |  390 rocker assemblies ERSON ? -- glennz, 06/06/2004
i know this topic has been adressed a while back, but am looking for the latest greatest rocker assemblies for the 390 FE with edelbrock heads
i am going with a complete set-up, i do run ( if i remember right ) stock length push rods but of the adjustable type correct...
anyone with part numbers to make easier on me, looked at erson but did not show full assy any longer. will need studs also if i remember right, is this right from edelbrock or another vendor
thanks in adavance...
glenn z |
|  | Erson still makes the complete assembly. -- Royce, 06/07/2004
Call Jeg's or Summit, both sell them. No one lists them in their catalog or website apparently because FE's are such a limited part of the market. Call either of these places 800 number to order. Expect to pay about $600 for the whole setup.
http://www.summitracing.com
http://www.jegs.com
Royce |
|  | RE: 390 rocker assemblies ERSON ? -- Scott, 06/07/2004
This is who I got mine from for my 428 with edelbrock heads: http://www.flatlanderracing.com/
Just look under rockerarms and Erson
It was a great bolt on setup.
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| | | RE: 390 rocker assemblies ERSON ? -- gene simmons, 06/07/2004
il be using the erson rokers for my edelbrock heads( erson has 2 part numbers for 1 for stock and 1 for edelbrock) i installed them using isky pushrods # 383, it all looks right when i checked the qeomtry and valve tip pattern.
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| | | | RE: 390 rocker assemblies ERSON ? -- glennz, 06/07/2004
thanks for replies, this is customer car and checked with flatlander $ 601 for assy. plus studs and shims...
gave summit the same part # and they were 77.69 yes i said 77.69, must be a typo or maybe i should get a couple sets, think they would notice.... |
| | |  | Pushrods? -- Dano, 06/07/2004
I have the Erson setup also, and am using the Crane roller cam, the roller lifters on the crane use a smaller ball than stock Ford, does anyone know if there are pushrods available for this setup? I think I will have to have some custom made, since I haven't been able to find any. |
| 428 block date code question -- Don, 06/06/2004
I have a 428 that I don't know what it came out of.It is a C6ME-A block.The date code on the pad above the oil filter adaptor says ..6H29 F .If the 6 is the year and the H is the month and the 29 is the day, what does the F stand for? |
 | mopars -- lenny, 06/06/2004
hey guys, where is agood mopar forum like this one? motor home drveloped ignition probs last weekend, and i need to get some input to figure the thing out. |
| | | RE: Not sure which is best, but here's a quick list... -- lenny, 06/07/2004
thanks |
| cam choice -- Dale Cecil, 06/06/2004
My 68 GT 390 Mustang w/4sp toploader will be a street driven car, but not a daily driver. I am currently in the process of a rebuild as noted on a previous post. I am shopping for a camshaft and lifter package now, and I think I want to keep the cam I have now. It is shot, but I am thinking it was the right cam for my application, so I am thinking I want to replace it with the same thing. The cam is a Comp Cams 33-224-3 268H. The Comp website says that it is a good replacement for factory perfomance grinds. 1500 to 5500 rpm, and noticeable idle.
Do any of you have any cam suggestions or comments?
Thanks
Dale
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| | RE: cam choice -- giacamo, 06/06/2004
decent cam i like comp cams thay last.and preform as advertized. |
| | RE: cam choice -- giacamo, 06/09/2004
please mach springs for cam ap...... |
| | | RE: cam choice -- Dale Cecil, 06/12/2004
giacomo,
The springs that were originally installed with my Comp Cams 268H were Erson E915051 single w/damper 1.54 OD 130 lbs. Does this sound like a good match to you?
Thanks
Dale
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| | | | RE: cam choice -- giacamo, 06/12/2004
proublie have them checked for spring bind, use instalation height asthe starting point for your check, then compress the spring to cam specks use cam company rec, for spring bind as in how much spring is left be for binding and 'spring company, for spring total compression befor spring is past the fitige point witch i call the point the springs go to hell well runing. it,s more of a jugment call wen using outher than exact maching conponents, i may bild a fe with asorted conponents for my own use but i try to stick with a total cam package for my custermers,and feal it,s worth the extra money. |
| 428 CJ Heads Exhaust Ports -- Brian, 06/05/2004
I jst picked up a set of used CJ heads and it appears that the previous owner port matched the to the original exhaust mainfolds which makes the ports lower. Am I screwed for using headers w/o having leaks? |
| | RE: 428 CJ Heads Exhaust Ports -- giacamo, 06/05/2004
maybe i,v sean exaust plates made to take up the slak and ground out to blend the ports back in on the exaust. to seal up leaks.i,t seams like alot work. but sometimes you got to do wat you got to do to make things work. |
| July Hot Rod FE buildup -- Glenn, 06/05/2004
July HR has a 675 horse FE engine that is built around a new block from Genesis. The engine has a big nasty roller cam and is using bolts instead of studs to hold the rocker stands to the Edelbrock heads. Wonder how long that will last. Another interesting point is the carb made a bit more power than EFI on the engine. |
| | RE: July Hot Rod FE buildup -- Barry R, 06/10/2004
That's my engine.
The bolts were used during the mockup so that Hot Rod could get photos and we could pull things apart quickly. Take a look and you'll see that the bolts are not even tight. Studs were used during the actual assembly. That said, quality bolts are equally as strong as studs, with the only real advantage being the saving of the threads in the aluminum.
The carb made 3 horsepower and 10 lbs.-ft. more at peak measured at W.O.T. Below peak and at part throttle the EFI had an advantage. In the car the EFI is the clear winner. Starting, driving, and response are simply much better.
Thanks,
BR |
| | | RE: July Hot Rod FE buildup -- Glenn, 06/10/2004
Wow, I'm green with envy Barry. Having the knowlege pool and resources of HR on tap for a project like that is like a dream come true. What are going to put the engine in? |
| | | | RE: July Hot Rod FE buildup -- Barry_R, 06/10/2004
THe engine is in a 1969 Torino notchback that I've owned since 1981. We ran it at Hot Rod's Pump Gas Drags in Memphis. The results of that event are in next month's issue. We didn't win - - but we didn't finish last either... |
| | | | resources of HR? WHAT resources?? -- Walker, 06/10/2004
HR probably didn't contribute 1 thin dime towards that build, and probably complained up, down and across about the cost of printing it and getting the accompanying photographs.
HR doesn't pay for jack.
All those intake comparo's, carb jet-offs? all parts donated by the manufacturers. That's why you'll see articles about comparing 6 different manifolds...ALL FROM EDELBROCK. You won't ever see a Consumers Report type comparison of manifolds, from different manufacturers, with actual unbiased )"they buy a lot of advertising pages") results.
Even the dyno time is usually donated "for exposure" of the business providing the time.
A lot of times, the articles themselves are written by the manufacturers and printed verbatim by HR, with all photo's and results and text provided by the manufacturer and often little or no editorial review by HR of the contents.
I'm guessing that maybe this was that sort of article, perhaps funded in part by the piston manufacturer that Mr. Barry R. works for. I don't know that though.
I AM getting real real tired of reading about the wonders of Edelbrock's catalog though and really really wish someone WOULD come out with a Consumers Report type publication dealing with aftermarket performance parts so we can start getting some current, accurate and unbiased reporting on them. |
| | | | | RE: resources of HR? WHAT resources?? -- Barry R, 06/10/2004
OK - - this one I simply have to respond to. Your spending too much time looking for "black helicopters" and guys in trench coats.
Of course Hot Rod gets parts from manufacturers. Have you ever built an engine and dynoed it? What did it cost? Can you imagine doing two, three, or five of them every month?
I have yet to see a single article that was a verbatim quote from a manufacturer. We had some folks here once that thought they could do that - write an article and pay to have it published. the guys from the un-named m,agazine told these Bozo's to go screw themselves (not using those exact words).
Should you believe every thing you read? Only if you're too stupid to do research on your own. But the general information is still valid and useful - - if you read it.
My engine was paid for by me. Hot Rod did not provide a dime. The piston company I work for was kind enough to make a set of pistons for me so I saved $600 - - out of the multiples of thousands that this deal cost. They never complained about the cost of printing - they volunteered to cover it because it sounded "cool" to them. They paid to send someone out from Cali to Detroit to take pictures and do the interview. |
| | | | | | So you're saying I'm right. -- Walker, 06/10/2004
"My engine was paid for by me. Hot Rod did not provide a dime. The piston company I work for was kind enough to make a set of pistons for me so I saved $600"
So, basically, you're saying I'm right.
HR didn't spend one thin dime on this, other than an expense account trip for an interviewer, who probably did more than just your interview/photo-session on his trip.
"Of course Hot Rod gets parts from manufacturers. Have you ever built an engine and dynoed it? What did it cost? Can you imagine doing two, three, or five of them every month?"
I can imagine doing a dozen of them every month. Let's see...circulation of 100,000 times $3/mag income = $300,000 per month less the cost of one dedicated editor, a bunch of shared people photographing, writing, goferring, typing (shared with all the other covers in the company); leaves a bunch o' money left for substantive testing.
Where's it go? Not into content obviously. It's going to pay off the debt and line the pockets of the investors who chuckle as they deposit the checks from HR's parent company.
It's like the Dire Straits song: Money for Nothing.
"I have yet to see a single article that was a verbatim quote from a manufacturer. We had some folks here once that thought they could do that - write an article and pay to have it published."
Maybe your guys didn't offer enough. I know for a real fact that you can find PR releases reprinted in car magazines as news stories. Check out "New Products" in one magazine, and see the same release as an article in another mag.
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| | | | | | | RE: So you're saying I'm right. -- Barry_R, 06/11/2004
Press releases are exactly that - - if that's your proof you're wasting keystrokes.
As far as the operating finances go - I'm not in their business. I would be willing to bet that those magazines cost a bit to publish in four color, cost a tad more to distribute. It can't be that profitable a game since they've been sold three times in five years - and for less rather than more money the last couple times. And the subscription price per book was pretty cheap last time I looked. If it cost them a couple grand to send the photo dude out that equates to a heck of a lot of books at a couple bucks each.
As for debt - yeah I'm sure they have to pay on it. Tell your mortgage company that debt is not important or legitimate.
Basically I'm saying that you are looking for great conspiracies where none exist. |
| 427? Mercury convertible -- Davy Gurley, 06/04/2004
I've tried to find a decoder for this vin but haven't had any luck, so I'm turning to you all for some help. A friend has acquired a 63 Merc convertible that was supposed to originally have had a 427 in it. Here are the numbers: VIN 3Z65Y545602; the rest of the plate is as follows; body 76A, color J, trim 95, date 2V, DSO blank, axle 1, trans 1. The buck tag is as follows: M 76A J 95 #1 45-26, and below that is this: EW1-M1-BU3 2.
The car is red, has cast iron headers and a clutch mechanism, but no tranny. It also has a Ford A/C unit mounted under the dash that I think was a dealer installed unit, it looks like the unit used in the cars of that time. The a/c compressor has a C3.. part no. on the tag. The seller said he blew up the 427 and installed a 390 hipo. The valve covers are chrome smoothies and the intake is aluminim. The only thing I can find on the intake is the 'firing order ....' and OJ31 cast into the manifold just above the thermostat, no part number.
This old car is in pretty bad shape (for Texas) but you guys in the rust belt might find it restorable. The top is gone and the interior is rotten. The floors have holes rusted in them about 2-4 in. in diameter. Can anyone help me confirm that this is a 427 car? Any comments are welcomed. Thanks |
| | RE: 427? Mercury convertible -- Travis Miller, 06/04/2004
Sorry to inform you that the Y in the serial number shows the car originally had a 390 2-barrel engine. It had a 3-speed trans with a 3.00 open rearend. |
| | RE: OJ31 intake date? -- McQ, 06/06/2004
Are you sure it was a J date code on that intake? At first I thought that it was a '60 HP 352 or '61 HP390 intake which it may very well be. But it's that J which should be September (A-1 through M-12 with -I- being eliminated for coding due to its resemblence to #1) that has me wondering why the day 31?
These early aluminum HP intakes did not have casting numbers on them.
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| | | RE: OJ31 intake date? -- Davy Gurley, 06/07/2004
I'm pretty sure of the date code on the manifold, but can double check it in a few days. I'm baffled by the reply by Travis stating the car had a 3 speed tranny. It has a console and a floor shifter hole, tranny gone, looks factory. I've never heard of a 3 speed with a floor shifter from the factory. and those cast headers.... |
| | | | RE: OJ31 intake date? -- Travis Miller, 06/07/2004
Does the serial number on the data plate match the serial number on the passenger side of the firewall?
Where does the brakeline running to the right front wheel go? Does it run along the crossmember under the engine?
Someone may have converted this Mercury years ago. Fifteen years ago a friend was going to buy a local car that everyone always thought was an original 427 '63 Galaxie 500XL. When we noticed the serial number showed it was originally a 352 car, the owner (who had bought the 427 car new) admitted he had totalled the original car back in the mid 60's. He bought the 352 car and switched everything over from the 427 car at that time. Until then no one had ever questioned it being a 427 car. |
| | | | well, travis is right.... -- hawkrod, 06/07/2004
the information on that tag says that car was built with a 390 2 barrel and a 3 speed. yes, 3 speed. the 3 speed could have a console but it would have a blanking plate and a shifter on the column. either the tag you have is not original to the car or somebody has been parts swapping. the cars serial number should be stamped on a tab under the hood on the cowl. check and see if it matches the tag. as far as parts swapping goes. that is an easy one. i was at a car show recemntly where i was shown a rare "one of" mercury cougar. the guy showed me all the rare stuff that was original. problem is i sold the car in 1984. prior to that i had added every rare accessory i could find and a few items that were not correct for a cougar but were for a torino! he had bought the car after it changed hands several times and was convinced that the car was original and untouched. the sad truth is the car was very touched as it was my daily driver for 4 years and i had swapped so much it was crazy. the guy refused to believe it was my old car even though i went home and got the missing front license plate from the wall in my garage (in california plates stay with the car for life). LOL he was absolutely sure i did not know what i was talking about and told everybody what a liar i was! it was amazing because so many people know me and they were just laughing at him and he got madder and madder and was just yelling at people. hawkrod |
| getting my engine rebuilt -- Dale Cecil, 06/04/2004
I was on this forum a few months ago about a noisy, knocking 390. Well, I took the engine to the shop last week and we dismantled it. It was completely shelled. Scored cylinder walls, damaged main crank journals, hot spots on the cam, you name it, it was wrong with it. We sent it to the machine shop, and it sounds like it can be saved. .0040 over on the cylinders, and .0010 under on the mains. The mains have to be built up first, then re-machined.
So you ask what happened? Well, while doing the "autopsy", we noticed that the oil pump gasket was misaligned when the engine was rebuilt last time. The gasked did not clear the pickup hole, it actually blocked it some. Well, anyway, I should have my engine back soon, and my car back on the road. I am getting excited about that.
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| | RE: getting my engine rebuilt -- giacamo, 06/04/2004
dale let the forum know how things go it,s allways a good day wen a fe thunders back to life........ |
| More questions on timing...not answered below -- Walker, 06/02/2004
I looked at the replies below, and went to the linked article. Still have questions though:
Generally, what affect on starting will advancing the timing have. For example, I have 10.6:1 compression and currently initial timing is set at 18 degrees. What would happen to cold-starting if I advanced the initial? retarded the initial? Any affect on hot-starting?
Thank you
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| | RE: More questions on timing...not answered below -- Gerry Proctor, 06/03/2004
How much resistance the starter has to overcome to get the crank rotating for the engine to fire depends on a number of things but most of all the cranking cylinder pressure.
Assuming that your starter, solenoid, cables, and battery are in good shape you probably wouldn't have any difficulty up to 150psi or so. How much harder the engine is to crank when it's hot depends on how the heat soak affects the efficiency of the components and whether you're dealing with fuel percolation or not.
Before the advent of electronic ignition controls we used to interrupt the ignition circuit during cranking and once the engine was up to cranking speed, throw the ignition switch to fire.
But why are you using so much initial advance? Are you trying to run without the vacuum advance? |
| | | Why: it's DIS, so 'vacuum advance' is now MAP adv -- Walker, 06/03/2004
and timing curve is precisely what I set it to be at any rpm/MAP point on the grid. It likes a high initial running, just seems to crank longer than I think it should on startup. Was wondering if retarding the timing alot down there on the grid, with an immediate jump back up to 18-20 degrees at idle rpm would help.
Thanks |
| | | | RE: Why: it's DIS, so 'vacuum advance' is now MAP adv -- Gerry Proctor, 06/03/2004
For a computer-controlled timing map, absolutely. As much initial advance at idle as reasonable is very helpful for good street manners. Thought we were talkin' 'bout a mechanicl system. |
| | | | | But at STARTUP? need some explanation/theory -- Walker, 06/03/2004
For example, during startup, the ignition advance is controlled not only by the main advance table, which is set at 18 initial, but also by tables with values determined by the coolant temp sensor and the manifold air temp sensor. Generally, the cooler things are, the more advance is added to the initial value in the main table...real world, working, example, at temps below 0 degrees, 10 degrees of timing advance is added to the initial 18 degrees in the main table (for a total of 28 degrees of initial timing on a cold morning). As the engine warms up, the additional amounts added to the advance gradually drops with the rising temperature to a net 0 add/subtract from the main ignition table.
Basic, fundemental question, I've never seen an answer to: why does a cold engine want so much ignition advance? |
| | | | | | RE: Now it gets complicated. -- Gerry Proctor, 06/03/2004
I'm assuming you have a scanner capable of reading the datastream. Look at the relationships of the calculated load/coolant temp sensor/rpm/O2v. Unless you're using an alpha-N, the system wants to get to closed loop as quickly as possible. Higher advance increases cylinder pressure which increases exhust heat which gets the O2 sensor and converter up to temp faster. There is also engine stability involved since a rich mixture is harder to fire and burn completely (or as completely as possible), makes the engine rough and sets misfire codes. It takes longer for the rich mixture to burn and hydrocarbons have a nasty habit of clinging to cold cylinder walls and will leave unburned if the advance isn't bumped up.
Take it for what it's worth but from the driver's seat, a significant idle advance at startup makes the vehicle easier to drive while it's warming up. |
| | | | | | | I thought RETARDING the timing raised temp's -- Walker, 06/03/2004
Don't quite get advancing timing to increase temperatures.
If this is true about cold engines running better with SOOOOOOOO much additional initial advance, why didn't the manufacturers build in some sort of temp-based advance mechanism into distributors...a thermocouple or something inserted into the coolant, something. We're talking adding more than 50% more timing during cold operation here.
Don't know about Alpha-n or datastreams. I do get to datalog engine status during operations, and can view the engine's operating status real-time by leaving the laptop open on the passenger seat. No converters, it does us O2 sensors though, and I get the idea that they need to get up to operating temps quickly, but still not fully buying the idea that advancing the timing will raise the engine's operating temperature.
Is there a link or article somewhere that someone could point me to that would address these kind of issues in more depth?
Thanks |
| | | | | | | | RE: We're working many different things. -- Gerry Proctor, 06/03/2004
You're trying to blend carburetion and mechanical distributors to fully-electronic controls.
You're right, late ignition timing will make an engine run hotter since the burn is occuring out the port and rather than contributing to the thermal efficiency of the engine, it is going into heating up the coolant. But that's different from creating heat in the combustion chamber that is caused by high cylinder pressure.
I'm still wondering why you have so much advance in the system but I suppose you're working from a manufacturer's recommendation. Usually, you will see high teens to low 20s on the advance for a cold engine. And low to mid teens once in closed loop. Some engines are tuned for a bit more, some a bit less. It's more of an emissions issue. Yep, mechanical distributors did use a thermal vacuum switch, depending on the emissions set up. Some even delayed spark advance while cold until the transmission was in high gear.
Sorry, I have no single source link I can send you to. There are OBDII forums that may be able to address your issues more thoroughly than I have or can. |
| | | | | | | | | Still looking for theory on advance timing. -- Walker, 06/03/2004
Thanks for your answers, but I guess I'm looking for the underlying reasons for an advance curve being what it is for a particular engine.
No manufacturer involved here. All aftermarket efi/DIS.
Mine is an FE, with 10:6 compression...flat top pistons, hydraulic roller cam (small Crane), 3.9 stroke with 6.7" rods, port injection. Is there someplace, or someone, I could go to to get an explanation of why my engine is happy at 18 degrees initial (it was happy at 24 degrees initial, but for emissions reasons I backed it down). This same source should then be able to answer my questions regarding cold-running advance needs as well. Also, at 24 degrees initial, throttle response was, believe it, too good. Too much chirping no matter how featherweight the throttle foot was.
Anyway, taking things to extremes, a cold engine likes a lot of advance to help burn the cold not-so-well-mixed air-gas mixture, so would it help it burn, on startup, if I made startup advance 30? 40? which I could easily do in the coolant or MAT sensor tables. What determines what's a ridiculous number?
Thanks again |
| | | | | | | | | | RE: Still looking for theory on advance timing. -- Gerry Proctor, 06/04/2004
You're well into the range of theoretical operation where you blend pure science and engineering...in other words, a think tank that includes engineering, chemists, and physicists and I'm none of those.
A specific answer to your question would require knowing where the cylinder pressure spike occurs. A small bore/long stroke engine will have a different optimal timing curve than a big bore/short stroke engine. There is also the combustion chamber design to consider. Every engine is different and that’s why tuning is so important and you can’t go by ballpark numbers other than to create a baseline.
There is a direct relationship between cylinder pressure (combustion energy) and oxides of nitrogen…the higher the pressure, the higher the nox emissions. Having the spike occur before TDC can create very high cylinder pressure (and associated nox) but a lot of the thermal energy is actually going into fighting inertia by trying to force the piston back down the bore. This isn’t always noticeable at idle other than through MAP but once the manifold vacuum has topped out, you’ve gone as far as you can. This doesn’t mean the engine will run well off idle with that much initial advance. As to a cold engine liking a lot of advance…were really talking primarily emissions issues. The higher limit only exists briefly and by a lot we’re talking in a range of five to eight degrees over the hot idle base timing.
So, with the timing numbers you’re stating are you sure the numbers are accurate? There are notorious ways to be misled with timing an FE. Those include a slipped inertial ring on the balancer and using a chain cover/timing pointer incompatible with the balancer mark. Have you verified that indicated TDC is actually TDC?
I'll have to run and record a datastream on my wife's car this weekend to map the numbers through transition. My cars are all CAN and my wonderful and expensive scanner is now useless.
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| | | | | | | | | | | I was surprising myself every new cold day... -- Walker, 06/04/2004
I was surprising myself every new cold day trying to find the upper limit of what it liked while programming cold-start parameters.
It's summer, I don't have to worry about it for another 6 months or so...I was thinking I could use the interval to bone up on some theory.
The engine is nothing remarkable chamber design-wise: edelbrock aluminum heads, so a common FE wedge chamber. Bore is 4.125. Not measuring timing off the balancer, it's got a crank trigger and wheel and other than being high, everything seems to be reading correctly.
So what you're basically saying is every engine is different and I need to keep changing, checking and adjusting timing for my particular engine. No nice web-calculators out there where I can plug in bore, stroke, cam profile, etc and see a nice baseline advance curve, albeit, one that might still require some fine-tuning.
Thanks |
| 427 S/O alum rods -- Nick, 06/01/2004
I work at a Ford performance shop in Texas. Recently one of our customers bought a 427 side oiler with tunnel port heads and 8V intake. He is building a Thunderbolt replica. The guy he bought the motor from said it was built by a Ford employee back in the sixties but was never run much more than a few times down the strip. Today we took off the oil pan to find aluminum rods with "Mickey" cast into them and "893407" stamped in black ink on the sides. The pistons are forged fomoco units, P/N C8AZ-6110A. Does anyone have any idea if the rods could be period correct and if there is any way to find out any information on them? Here are a few more numbers:
Block: C8AE-A
Heads: C7OE-6090K
Crank: C7AZ-6303C |
| | RE: 427 S/O alum rods -- giacamo, 06/01/2004
Mickey tomson rods? dont know how good thay are. |
| | RE: 427 S/O alum rods -- Gerry Proctor, 06/02/2004
MT rods were pretty common in drag engines in the 60s. He was one of the few manufacturers making aluminum rods back then and actually had a development program for the FE including hemi heads. The rods show up from time to time today but I don't know why anyone would use them. They are not the height of rod technology in either design or alloy. Also, being used, you have no idea of how many cycles they have been exposed to. They are the best way I can think of to turn a valuable block into scrap.
As far as being "period correct" no one is going to see the inside of the engine as it sits in the chassis so why go to the trouble?
The down side is that the engine was probably balanced with the aluminum rods which means that if you go back to steel rods, the crank will have to be re-balanced. |
| | | I would take the rods out..... -- Royce, 06/03/2004
The block was probably a new service block or could possibly have come new in a 1968 Cougar GT-E. Could you check to see if there is a VIN stamped either on the back of the passenger side just below the head surface or approximately the same place on the front? We are trying to document the VIN's for a registry project.
Thanks,
Royce |
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