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 |  old FE block ID -- shane, 10/29/2001
need help with the id of a old fe motor here are the numbers I found on the heads EDC 6090E. ON THE BLOCK ED06015C 79M4 44 THE INTAKE IS A 4 BBL (CAST IRON) WITH THE NUMBERS EDE 9425A 79E AND IT HAS A DUAL POINT DISTRIBUTOR . LOOKS LIKE THE PAINT WAS GREEN . CAN ANYONE HELP? THANKS SHANE |
|  | RE: old FE block ID -- kevin, 10/30/2001
Looks like you stumbled on to an early 58 352 with machined chamber heads. Does it have core plugs on the end of the block by the water pump? The dual point is not original, since it came out in 60. What are you planning to do with said engine? |
| | | RE: old FE block ID -- shane, 11/01/2001
thanks for the info. I would have bet it would have been a 361 yes it has core plugs if i remember right they look like casting bumps about 2" round . this motor has a power steering pump and generator. it also has a fuel sediment bowl.I got this motor with other parts on a trade I made.As for what I will do with the motor I dont know . I know I would have to put it in a older car because of the motor mounts(and I have no old car it will fit) also I know it has no mounting hole for an alt. it also has solid lifters ( correct ?) Is this motor something that is hard to find? Is this something someone could use? IS it one of the first FE motors ford made? thanks any info would be great shane |
| | | | RE: old FE block ID -- Bob, 11/02/2001
Sounds like one of the first FEs. If its a 361 then its out of an Edsel. In my opinion, its rare. Most were scrapped long ago.
One look under the valve covers to see if it has adjustable rocker arms will answer the question about the lifters and if it's an early 361; no 361 used solid lifters.
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| | | |  | RE: old FE block ID -- shane, 11/03/2001
thanks its a 352. I will probably clean and paint it up and use it for a conversation piece. thanks to all and fomoco for the help |
 | max bore for a 427 -- robbie, 10/29/2001
I've read that the max bore for a 427 is .030,, is this true and what are the options to a block already .030??I'm still in the market for a good short block center oiler or side
Robbie |
|  | RE: max bore for a 427 -- Mel Clark, 10/29/2001
If you can find pistons, you might be able to squeeze another .010 over bore. The cylinder walls will be very thin and you should have the block sonic tested before trying to do this. The next option would be to have sleeves installed in all 8 cylinders which is a bit expensive and requires a really good machine shop. If they scrap the block you will be out a lot of bucks.
I don't know if it's been done or if it can be done but, I would like to know if sleeves could be furnace brazed in place after installation. This would help to regain some of the rigidity of a std. block but would require a complete re machining of it to blueprint specs. Also a costly operation, not for anyone with a light wallet. |
| 68 Cyclone -- Tom, 10/28/2001
i just got a 68 cyclone out of a wreckin yard
have not picked up title yet but the dor is from a torino and all vin numbers from dash and under fender are gone the 351w came out in 69 if im correct
but my 68 has a markin on the fenders where a 351 Badge was so do i have a 68 or 69 or a really rare late in the year 68
*also still lookin for 427 Block" |
| Oil Leak -- John M. Sutton, 10/28/2001
I have discovered an oil leak between the head and block of my replacement engine - the 427 ribbed block I've been referring to, for those of you who have been following. (It isn't valve cover; it's head.) The leak is one drop about every 2-3 seconds at idle. I don't know what it will do at high rpms on the road, because I am waiting for the transmission to come back from the rebuild shop. The leak is from the right rear of the engine, right in the bottom corner. Tightening the head bolts 1/4 turn slowed the leak a little, but not much.
I am under a serious time crunch, because I am moving from the WA, DC area to Augusts, GA - about 600 miles. I can put the tranny in, or fix the head, but not both.
Based on your collective knowledge of the FE, can I nurse 600 miles out of this thing, and just keep it full? Or, is there a history of leaks from here? Is the location of the leak bound to soon blow into the coolant? Or is the head made in such a way that it can go for a long while like this?
Thanks for your advice, and opinions. If I had the time, I would just change the head gasket, but I am leaving Thursday.
My option if I do not change it is to scrap the truck. Not a pleasant option.
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| | RE: Oil Leak -- richard, 10/28/2001
where the head and intake meet you have the possibility of oil leaks especially with the FE engine as oil return goes right down the seam. you can clean hte area and tempoarily seal the leak with silicon. but you will have to fix it right soon. it doesnt sound like a head gasket problem to me though. |
| | | I agree. -- Dave Shoe, 10/28/2001
There's no oil in that part of the block - It's gotta be the intake manifold gasket seeping down the deck. This can be a common problem when the gaskets aren't set just right (I've had problems like this many a time).
Be cautious about simply fixing the problem by gushing silicone seal into the rar corners of the intake manifold, as the sealer may get shoved deep enough into the engine to cover up the oil return passage from the head.
Probably the best solution is to remove the intake manifold and reinstall it using new gaskets. You may want to inspect the old gaskets in hopes of learning why they failed - this inspection often times can reveal some interesting info.
Shoe. |
| | RE: Oil Leak -- John M. Sutton, 10/28/2001
Rich and Dave, I appreciate your advice. I sure hope that's what it is! I know I had the same problem on my '66 352. It dripped all down the back and into the clutch. Ruined the clutch, and I went to the trouble to change a rear main seal with the engine in the truck - all to no avail, ruining a second clutch, until I fixed the back of the manifold.
I'll let you know, once I get back online in GA. |
| FE color codes -- Joe Terrizzi, 10/28/2001
I have read many forum questions pertaining to the ID of different FE motors. Many of which deal with the ID of casted numbers in the blocks. I have also read articles writen on concours resto of original blocks used in the mustangs era 67-70. In these articles several times they claim no specific casting numbers at all on the blocks. They do note that various blocks without these casting codes have different color ID near or behind the starters. I seldom ever see any reference to the color codes used on FE engines in the late 60s. It does make some sence that this was in use then. Many blocks different from each other haveing the same casting must have got confusing then. Seeing that these engines where mix & match reguarding molds / different engines useing the same casting. I would presume that the color codes must have been used in the late 60s. This would put any block in a generalized catagory. These 5 or 6 catagorys depending on application of engine and intended use ford could have chosen the best engine code to be used. I have seen colors such as (red)(blue)(yellow) on most 428 of the era with no casting ,originals unrestored with no casting what so ever. What are the color codes ford used on the FE engines ? Are the color codes used for the 427 blocks the same and do there application and ID apply to all the FE engines?
Thank Joe |
| When is an FE not an FE?? -- John M. Sutton, 10/28/2001
Now I am confused, from my earlier post about an interesting FE motor with ribs on the side block. I understand the 352-360-390 series, but what is a 427, and a 361,and a 391? Are they FE engines also? If so, how do they fit into the grand scheme?
While I am asking, what is the difference between the 427 and the 428?
And finally, is a 460 an FE engine?
Thanks for tolerating the confusion! |
| | RE: When is an FE not an FE?? -- Ed R, 10/28/2001
FE series of engine includes 332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427 and 428. FT series engines are the 361 and 391 plus other sizes. The 427 is still a FE motor although it was modified for racing as was the 406. The Ft series of engines were used in medium and heavy duty trucks and are more robust, low compression, high torque units. Some parts from the FT motors can be swapped into the FE series or modified to function there. ie. the crankshaft can be modified by cutting down the 'snout' to FE size and trimming the flywheel flange. The FT crank is a forged steel unit. |
| | | RE: When is an FE not an FE?? -- richard, 10/28/2001
you will find reference to a 427 sohc engine. this is also an FE engine with overhead cams. the 460 is a different design series. it is sort of like a 351c on steroids. it is known as a 385 series motor. |
| | | One other FT is the 330................ -- Ed Jenkins, 11/02/2001
.....With the right parts All 352 up FE's can be monsters on the street!! |
| | RE:427 the true bad boy?? -- R Shannon, 10/28/2001
I'd start at the Flat head. Ford first V8s was flat heads (no overhead Valves) the next generation was the "Y" blocks 272s,292, and 312s. Now it gets confusing alittle About the time the FE can out the Merc's had the MELs 361s 430s. The FEs ran for a good 28 years. When from 332s in 58 to a real kick ass street 390 360HP in 60/61. other manufactures started upping the cubs in 61 (Chevy 409, poncho 421, and Mopars 413s) thus ford responded with the 406 A FE designed for racing. Again in 63 Cubic race continued (Bow tie 427 Mark IV, Mopar 426 wedge, poncho's no change due to their success on the NASCAR and Drag strip) Ford stepped up and introduced the 427 related but, unlike its cousins the rest of the FE family, O sure they look alike but thats where it ends. In 66 Ford introduce a less expensive more street freindly 428 which is a slightly bored and stroked 390 (nothing like the big bore shorter stoke 427 with the high dollar parts) Even though the 428 made a name for itself, in most racers and fans mines it's the 427 was the true bad boy of the FEs. To me the badA@@, best looking, and most sout after car is the 66/67 Fairlane 427 a stock, super stock, and current stock eliminator record holder in A/S and of course everybody knows what C. Shelby did with the ACE COBRA. This is just my opinion, I sure other will disagree. |
| | | RE:427 the true bad boy?? -- Mike McQuesten, 10/29/2001
Excellent review there R. Just a very minor correction only because you seem to really give a damn)and that's a good thing)...the first real kick ass 360 horse FE was of 352 dimensions for '60. Then it was the 390 for '61 with the 375 horse hp and in April, '61, the tri power was an option that could be ordered that bumped the 375 horse to 401. That tri power option was placed in the trunk by the way. Dealer installed. The '62 390HP and later 406/405 got the three Holleys installed at the factory.
The '66/'67 Fairlanes are fabulous indeed. With any engine. But the W or R codes are the rarest. My personal preference would be.......a '67 Mercury Comet Cyclone R-code 427. Hmmm, I wonder who has one of those stashed in his garage? |
| | | | RE:427 Cyclone WOW..?? -- R Shannon, 10/30/2001
Frogot about the solid lift HP352s, they were alittle before my interest, therefore my knowledge limited to say the least. I like the Cyclones also, but never seen a R one. Like I seen alot of R fairlanes (Only one) on the street back in the 68. I would mentioned the Thunderbolts but they are so rare and dealer sponsered racers. Nice talking 427s which to me was the ulitmate Race engine back in the good old Days. Always wanted one, but never could afford one. Going to read Pauls Recommended sites. Later... |
| | | | | RE:427 Cyclone WOW..?? -- Mike McQuesten, 10/30/2001
Let me tell you R.(R code?) Shannon, there is a '67 R code Cyclone available as I type this. It's owned by a regular contributor to this forum. He has been very kind to share many details about this one of eight (that's correct.....1 of 8 R code, 427-dual 4V, 1967, Comet Cyclones built) cars. I personally knew of one other that was bought/traded back in and stolen/stripped in the South Seattle area, 1968.
I've been doing too much thinking & pipe dreaming lately about how I could and should by this R code now while it's available. It's a good buy to say the least. There are a load of reasons why I can't right now, the "normal" ones, i.e., mortgage, 2 kids in college, a wonderful & tolerant wife of nearly 32 years, etc. She would say, "just sell that '60 Sunliner you've got spread all over the shop and garage and go for it..." But I can't do that now.
So there you go R. A fully equipped R code '67 Cyclone with lots of extras. It's all there. The owner would prefer it go to someone here in the U.S.A. who has a genuine passion for this car.
This is going to be one of those....I shoulda', coulda', regrets I know.
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| | | | | | RE:427 Cyclone WOW..?? -- Mel Clark, 11/01/2001
Yup, I got it and it's available! Here's a couple of pix. More are available if you send me an email requesting them.
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| | | | | | | RE:427 Cyclone WOW..?? -- chris, 11/01/2001
there is supposed to be a restored red 67 427 cyclone at the Ford meet at Mooresvile ,N.C. dragway this sat. |
| | | | | | RE: Heck, I'm the orginal Poorboy?? -- R. Shannon, 11/04/2001
I can't afford it, who else would work on a Saturday night except us poorboys (I know where you're are coming from Mike, have a son in Graduate School at ASU). Thanks for the pics Mel, what a neat car! I would think someone would want it for their Museum, heck I think it's more rare than Thunderbolts. Hey, did you see the Old nascar race on speedvision the other night, I think it was the sourthern 500 in 66 or 67 . Had a 66 or 67 Comet running up front that had 405 CI on the hood? Just wondered how they got 405 Cubic Inches. Must of been running a 390 instead of the 427 that the galaxies was running. Or they D stroked a 427? |
| | | | | | | Re: fe 405 cid -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
Back then NASCAR allowed the mid-sized cars to race with up to 406 CID depending on weight. I don't know that particular combination as all of the teams seemed to be running the 396 cid combination, 427 bore and 352 stroke for real high rpm power. For a while Ford tried to get the teams to put 390 on the hoods as they were close in size, I think NASCAR dis allowed that for whatever reason. Ford wanted to promote the 390 cars even though there was a vast difference in power plants. When you watch those old races you will see Petty's car with 400 on the hood and the Ford teams ran the FE engines right through '72 (I believe) or later as they were the only engines Ford had that was able to lead or at least keep up with the others. Most teams would not use the 385 series engines as they didn't make the power that was
needed. Then Ford let them know that if they didn't adopt the 385 they would recive no further support from Ford or it's affiliates. |
| | | | | | | | I believe the 427 was used after the 429. -- Dave Shoe, 11/04/2001
The 427 was run after NASCAR made it tough to run hemi-headed engines back around 1972. The 427 wedge was just faster (more developed) than the 429 wedge back then. Eventually, the rule book was adjusted to saddle all 7-liter engines with extra regulations that smaller displacement engines didn't have to deal with.
JMO,
Shoe. |
| | | | | | | | | RE: Change-over date -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
I'm not certain of the year but, The Hemis were restricted to 1 4V carb. and the Fords could run 2 4Vs on the 396 engines for a short time and they ran away from the field. This was an era of a lot of turmoil for NASCAR and all of the manufacturers and teams. The rules seemed to be changed on a week to week basis. I worked at Holman and Moody at the time and was at Daytona for some private Ford, Holman and Moody and Firestone track testing time, Ford rented the track for a week and the engineers and John Holman were really upset because either Cale or LeRoy Y. was running a 2 year old car for Firestone with lap speeds of about 217 MPH and the best we could do was about 207 and that was with the drag race cam. Nothing worked for the Boss engines that week.
At that time it was rumored that NASCAR was going to impose a 6 liter limit on engines (366 cid) and while I was there I saw 8 or 10 scaled down Boss 429 engines in a restricted area. These were just like the Boss engines only smaller, They looked more like a Boss 302 or 351 with Hemi heads on them. I have tried for years to find out what ever became of them and keep running into "not my department" and "never heard of its" whenever I talk with Ford bigwigs or NASCAR people. Even Smokey Yunik had little to say other than he heard of the engines. I saw them and tried to take some pix but, security ran me out of there before I could. |
| | | | | | | | | RE: I believe the 427 was used after the 429. -- mikeb, 11/04/2001
So, what year did the 427 make its final appearance in NASCAR?
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| | | | | | | | | | RE: FEs Last in NASCAR -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
That's a tough question. Ford told all of the teams that were getting support, money and free parts as well as engineering info in the winter of 1970/71 at some meeting or another, that they would have to run the Boss engines to continue getting the same support. That is what killed the FE in the factory supported race efforts. The independant teams that didn't get any help ran whatever they could afford. Many bought up as much of the 427 and 396 engines and parts as they could, at give away prices. Do some research and you may be able to locate some of it still. |
| | | RE: Lima -- Rob, 11/03/2001
Anyone ever hear the 385 series called the Lima series?... read it in a magazine awhile back... i recall that we disputed on family names (fe-ford edsel).. and someone had said that the 385 had never had a name..... maybe this is it.. who knows... im sure Lima is prolly the place where it was born (or a made up place in my mind,haha who knows... anyone with information on this?)
My old man had a 67 427 Fairlane... and im still jealous to this day of him. He let it go for a nova that burned oil new and the dealer never found out why.... thats when he became die hard ford.. i would've kicked him if i was there when he traded it.. and im sure he's kicking himself now especially with the cost of em. |
| | | | RE: Lima -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
Ford had a plant in Lima and I think they built the Truck and Bus gas engines that are very similar to the 385 engine family. I am not certain though. |
| | | | | RE: How about Blue Crescent, Shotgun, etc. -- Mike McQuesten, 11/04/2001
This isn't the forum for this but I just have to laugh when I think of all the names that were being bantered back in '69/'70 trying to find a cool label for the "new" big block Ford. This was especially such for the hemi head '29, i.e., Boss which became official of course, but there was Shotgun, Blue Crescent, along with Lima, 385, and a few more.
All I know for fact is.....the "new" big block never got a chance to be developed as the FE had. It suffered some bad press. This ain't no magazine article evaluation but the real honest to goodness on the strip comparison: first, a 1969 Fairlane Cobra, drag pack 428SCJ, with C6 & 3.91 gearing...consistent high thirteens stone stock. Second, a 1970 Torino Cobra, drag pack 429SCJ, with C6 & 3.91 gearing...consistent mid fourteens stone stock. Oh, both had were R code, thus, ram air cars, the '70 having the very cool Shaker system.
Does this mean I think the "new" whatever big block was less a mill? Absolutely NOT. It only takes a visit to the few drag strips left in America to generally find at least one 429/460+ cuber running with the Chevy crews. Often, actually beating them! They're almost a no brainer/no challenge to build to run. Kinda a like them Chevrolets. And with that brand, it's definitley little challenge to build a runner. Just my HO of course. One of the many reasons I like the big iron FE. Ford heritage all the way. |
| | | | | | RE: The Big Blue Bow Tie -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
Many of us that raced when the 429/460 came out felt that Ford had just copped out and copied the Rat motor, so why buy a Ford when you could get proven performance from a Rat and for less money. Years of development and an abundance of good parts already out there made the Chevrolet engines the hot ticket of the time. |
| | | | | | | careful, fellers, sounding like you all might be -- mikeb, 11/04/2001
secretly trying on bowties! |
| | | | | | | | Re: no way! -- Mel Clark, 11/04/2001
I'm into the 4.6 DOHC engines now, just a little bit (I only have 3 right now) but, my love is the FE engine family and the 427 in my absolute favorite. In reality, if its an engine I like it regardless of the color! |
| | | | | | RE: How about Blue Crescent, Shotgun, etc. -- Don V, 11/04/2001
Those elapsed times Mike mentions are about what they are still turning at the Pure Stock shootouts at Mid Michigan for both Ford's. I am surprised the 429's aren't into the 13's yet at these events. |
| Hopefully find a match to my block and head codes -- John, 10/28/2001
I have a block and heads from a buddy who lost interest in them and gave them to me. He was sure they were worth it to rebuild. Im hoping to put them in my ford short box 4X4. If anyone can tell me what they may have been from and if they are worth investing money into. They are aparently a 390 about 67-68. The block numbers are S1D1F and
the head numbers are D2TEAF as far as I can tell.
Ive tried the network 54 site and no one seem to know.
Thanks for any help. |
| Oil Dipstick Tube won't fit -- Darren, 10/28/2001
I had my 390 rebuilt and when it came back it didn't have the dip stik tube or stick. So I went to my Local Ford dealer and had the tube ordered. Now I have teh tube and it won't go in the hole. Is there some trick like freezeing the tube with dry ice or is this the wrong tube? |
| | Is the old tube busted off in the block? -- Dave Shoe, 10/28/2001
The tube commonly breaks off just outside the block when you try to remove it. Are you sure that remanents of the old tube haven't broken off in the block? Perhaps when the machine shop broke it, they filed the remaining stub flush to the block so you wouldn't notice until after you paid? (just kidding)
Sometimes the tube slides in easily and needs sealer, other times its a snug fit. You shouldn't have to deal with heat or cold to get it to go in, however.
JMO,
Shoe. |
| | RE: Oil Dipstick Tube won't fit -- tom, 11/02/2001
I just had the same problem with my 428.
My tube was slightly ovaled which caused part of the problem. But even after this was fixed it
still took a hammer and a piece of wood to get it in. |
| | | RE: Oil Dipstick Tube won't fit -- John, 11/02/2001
I've had this problem also. It appears that the dipstick hole is off two diameters. The first hole drilled in the block is too small for the tube. The second is counterbored and is too big for a snug fit of the tube. So, I can see how the tube could catch on the inner edge of the smaller hole. I never did reach a satisfactory conclusion about this. I tried to grind and taper the tube, but still no go. So finally I used silicone...very carefully so as not to get any inside the tube or in the block....and of course all I got was a leak. I suspect there's more to this than meets the eye. My tube was not originaly form the block I used incidentally. |
| | RE: Oil Dipstick Tube won't fit -- dan, 11/16/2001
Just got my 390 back from shop and have similar problem. There is a short tube in the block that is flared. My dipstick tube has the same flare on it.
Am I missing a joining tube that connects the two?
The shop doesn't recall disassembly (different person doing disassmbly). |
| | | The flared tube is the busted tube. -- Dave Shoe, 11/18/2001
That flare is the lower quarter of the original tube. Pry it out and stick an unbroken tube in there.
These tubes are available in reproduction, but I know there are a couple different styles due to the different exhaust bolt patterns (which the tube may mount to) or due to the other tube style which uses the tapped hole in the front of the head to secure it. I haven't yet studied the different tubes available in repro, so I can't help with details right now.
Shoe. |
| | | | RE: The flared tube is the busted tube. -- dan, 11/18/2001
thanks Dave. I am using FPA headers and will have to look for a repro tube. Any suggestions woudl be appreciated. |
| Vehicle Identification codes question -- Mike H, 10/27/2001
I am trying to understand the casting numbers so that I know what to look for when I try to find an original engine. I bought a 1970 Mach 1(3/70) that has an incorrect engine in it. It is supposed to have a 351C-4V in it. I was under the impression that the third letter in the casting number tells what type of vehicle it went in. Is this how the following casting number breaks down? D0ZE D = 70's, 0 = 1970, Z = Mustang, E = Ford engine division. If there was a letter after the E, that would be the revision number? Is Z the only engine code that went into the Mustangs or was there other's? What about a D0AE? |
| | RE: Vehicle Identification codes question -- Travis Miller, 10/28/2001
The third digit in casting numbers as well as part numbers indicates the car line for which the part was originally designed. Do not expect every part used on a Mustang to have a Z for the third digit. If it has an A it was originally designed for a full sized Ford, even if it was put on a Mustang. The following is a list of letters and car lines that can be seen in the third digit position:
A = Full size Ford
G = Comet
J = Industrial and marine
K = Edsel
O = Fairlane
S = Thunderbird
T = Truck
W = Cougar
Z = Mustang
D0AE would be an engine part first used in a 1970 full sized Ford. However it could also have been used in any other Ford product. This info comes from Steve Christ's book How To Rebuild Your Big-Block Ford. It gives the best explaination of Ford part and casting numbers I have ever seen. |
| B9AE vs. C4AE -- Ted Young, 10/27/2001
Are the 1959 and 1964 castings identical in port and combustion chamber design? Can I use one 59 and one 64 head on an engine without incurring any problems?
Thanks,
Ted Young |
| | Yup. Same thing. -- Dave Shoe, 10/27/2001
The standard production FE head was unchanged from mid-1958 thru 1965. Runners and combustion chamber spec appear to be the same.
The head went through significant changes at the start of 1966, both for emissions regulations and for Fairlane/Mustang compatibility.
Shoe. |
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