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| 390 rebuild -- sunnyb, 10/24/2001
thanks for the info dave, i rebuilt the 390 and had the heads "done" bottom end was superclean, crank was mint. bores were good so i just honed them and put in new rings, got a new stock cam and lifters, new main bearings, cam bearings, rod bearings and rod bolts, my intake is a 2bbl, got the intake and block hot tanked, new carb, water pump, alternator, regulator, wires, clutch plate/bearing, and basically everthing i could touch. the whole thing took two weeks and my buddy did all the mechanical (with a little help from me) and i did all the prep and paint. (i took a load of stuff to work and bead blasted for days) so far i've put on 600 city miles and it's running like a top, no problems. thanks again and the fe forum. i put up a handful of pics of the rebuild so you can see what we did. here it is: http://sunnyb.iwarp.com thanks again, -sunnyb. |
| Turning a crankshaft -- Rick McCommon, 10/24/2001
Can a crank be turned .040 on the mains? Is this too much? This is for a 427 sideoiler. Thanks for any comments. Rick |
| | RE: Turning a crankshaft -- Travis Miller, 10/24/2001
Crankshafts can be turned down safely as far as there are bearings available. At the NHRA INDY US Nationals this year, we had both the winner and runner up in the SS/AA Hemi Shootout pull a piston and rod out of the engine during teardown. We measured the crankshaft journal size to make sure that they had not turned the crank down to fit in smaller rods. It is not unusual for highly modified cranks to be turned down nearly .250 for lighter, smaller sized rods. And engines done like that turn 9,000 RPMs or more safely. |
| | | RE: Turning a crankshaft -- richard, 10/24/2001
you night nag check the crank for cracks before you turn it. |
| | It sounds like a steel crank - no problems at all. -- Dave Shoe, 10/25/2001
Since the FE was designed for nodular cast cranks (hence the large journal sizes), and you're running a crossdrilled steel crank, you can get away with turning those journals waaay down and still have excess strength and stiffness.
40-40 is no sweat at all on a cast crank in an FE. 40-40 is NOTHING on a forged crank. Assuming it mags and mics OK, it's gonna be ready for the hardest racing you can throw at it.
Shoe. |
| Marauder -- Michael Bryce Winnick, 10/23/2001
1. I am astounded and thrilled to find an FE Forum. If this site is 1/2 as good as the 429 Forum I will be able to build one hot Marauder. I will start a resto in about 2 weeks. I have never worked with a 390 before. The car is a 69 Marauder.
2. Any generic elementary pointers to throw some muscle onto a 390?
3. Anyplace to learn the history of the 390 or anything of interest as to how they were different in 69?
4. Hey- are they any good? |
| | RE: Marauder -- Travis Miller, 10/23/2001
As with any car that is going to potentially get tuned for power, you need to have a good rear gear for acceleration. Unless the car will see a lot of interstate miles, a gear such as 3.25 or 3.50 will bring your 390 to life. Without this being done, your search for power will be wasted. I have seen many people spend untold dollars on engine mods and be disappointed because their nice ride is still stuck with a factory rear gear like a 2.80 that will not let the engine breathe. |
| | | building a good street motor requires -- richard, 10/23/2001
common sense more than anything else. start by deciding what rpm range you will spend about 90% of the time using. for a street motor 1500-4500 is a good range. next make sure the bottom end is solid. it is no good making 500 hp if the motor breaks every time you start the thing. have the rotating assembly balanced. blueprinting is nice but if you dont have the cash you dont have to do it unless you are building a race motor.
next pick your cam intake heads and exhaust system to work in the rpm range you have chosen. no sense in using a monster cam, stock intake and race headers if you are driving to and from work. if you build it take your time and do it right. if you farm out the build, find a shop you can trust and who will let you see the motor as they build it or at least let you inspect it from time to time. follow the cam makers break in procedure, and change the oil at 500, 1500, and 3000 miles, then as normal there after. |
| | RE: Marauder -- Tim B, 10/24/2001
I've always thought the Marauder was a cool Merc, sort of a factory custom look especially the X-100. The 390 is a good engine. It's not a 428CJ but it can be made to act like one.
Edelbrock makes a Performer Package for it. http://www.edelbrock.com/
Tim B |
| | | RE: Marauder -- Michael Bryce Winnick, 10/25/2001
I am leaning towards a mildly modified stocker. The rear gear will be be a 3:50 with a Detroit Locker unit, just like my Torino. The motor will get a PAW rebuild kit, Edelbrock 750 manual choke, 2.5 inch duals, and Mallory unilite vacume advance distributor. 3 angle valve job. PLEASE TELL ME IF THERE IS A FLUIDAMPR MADE FOR THE 390. Thanks |
| | | | Beware of PAW! -- Dave Shoe, 10/25/2001
PAW rebuild kits have had more FE sob stories attached to them than any other manufacturer. Even my brother got screwed by them after buying one of their most expensive kits, and his was a nailhead Buick, not one of the many FE stories. PAW uses crappy parts and their machine shop is run by children. Their warrantee is good until you file a complaint - aat which time you learn it's real value.
Summit and Jegs are reputable "big warehouse" places to buy parts, as are many of the folk who have big FE shops and who hang out in the FE forums. You'd be money ahead to keep PAW out of the picture for all items which aren't new and name brand. Always buy thier catalog, however, as it's a great resource (note that they only stock a tiny fraction of what is in their catalog).
As for the rear gears, you'll want to be sure you've actually got a 9" in there, and not a 9-3/8" rear. Ordering the wrong gearset can be a pain. If you just buy a whole 9" carrier assembly, then it doesn't matter, because a 9" will drop right into a 9-3/8" sheetmetal housing.
If you look for headers, be sure to get a type that works with your low-exit type C8AE-H heads. Most FE car headers are of the high-exit type, and bolting these up will cause exhaust leaks and poor performance due to the mismatch. Be especially careful of Hooker in this case. FPA (www.fordpowertrain.com) might be a first stop. Be sure to phone the header manufacturer to be sure you get the "low-exit" flange.
A Mallory distributor is not exactly well spent money, but it's a nice distributor. I run a Mallory conversion kit in my stock distributor with great luck. You'd be money ahead converting your stocker with a Pertronix kit and then having the distributor curved at a distributor shop.
I don't recall whether Fluiddamper makes an FE damper. I believe they do, but I may be thinking of a 460-conversion damper. Converting a 460 damper to fit an FE is popular. Since the stock 1969 damper is a good design, I don't think I'd buy a new damper prior to buying a new Edelborck RPM intake manifold.
Also, do you have a 2-barrel engine (9.5:1 compression piston) or a 4-barrel engine (10.5:1 C.R. piston)?
Shoe.
|
| | | | RE: Marauder -- Will, 10/26/2001
There is NOT a fluidampr for the FE, but the 429/460 damper will work. You just have to have the spacer behind the damper cut by 1/2". You also have to convert to a 4-bolt pulley. You may also have belt alignment issues.
You have to watch the dampers out there. Some of them are made for the 429/460, but they say they are for the FE. Again, making them work isn't a big deal, but it's better to know what's involved up front.
The better names for FE's are: Romac, ATI, Innovator's West, and Ford. Some people run a new Ford 429/460 damper. I'm about to install my Fluidamper on my 428. If I could do it over, I'd probably go with the ATI.
You may also want to try http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/74182
This is a great forum, but there's also a lot of good FE people hanging out on network54. |
| Boring a 406?!? -- Joshua Carroll, 10/23/2001
I know some 427 and most 428s have thin cylinder walls and boring more than 30 over is not advised. Does the same go for a 406. I have a standard bore 406 and currently plan on boring it 30 over. If the cylinder walls are thin in general than I may try for 20 over instead. Thanks for the info. Also what color should a 1962 406 be, red?!? |
| Strange 4100? -- Ed Jenkins, 10/22/2001
I've purchased what I though was a 600 CFM 1957 4100 4v carb. But it is some thing else entirely
The only numbers on the carb are 71NZ.
I've done some measurements on the carb and this is what I have found
Bores: 1 7/16" dia Venturis: 1/2"dia
This seams like a very strange 4100 to me. This must be some kind of rare experimental carb.
I'm guessing that it only flowed about 300 to 400 CFM |
| Flex plate id -- Greg Gilliam, 10/22/2001
The 428 cj I bought recently has a strange looking flex plate on it . It's solid ,no slots, or any wagon wheel appearance. It does have a fomoco stamp. The engine is a cj for sure. Anyone ever seen one of these? p.s. ( It's a '69 cj in a mach I) |
| 390/391 -- Jerry, 10/22/2001
I know that the 391 was a truck engine but I have heard that it has 4 bolt mains and is the same as FE 390. Is this true? |
| | Re: 390/391 -- richard, 10/22/2001
there are differences between the fe and ft engines. one was the steel crank and larger snout. another was a heavier duty block but i dont recall it having cross bolted mains(the only 4 bolt main type for fe/ft engines as i recall). |
| | | RE: Re: 390/391 -- Mike McQuesten, 10/22/2001
Here's a little info on the 391 FT. They generally are a heavier duty block. They generally were cast with cylinder walls like a 428, at least the one that I have was. They generally have the heavy duty main webbing with provision for cross bolted main caps, i.e., the bosses are cast.
I say generally about all of these things because I don't state anything as factual, "that's the way it was....".
The block I have is a C6ME casting. The "428" is barely visable through the middle expansion plug hole. The bosses are there for cross bolt mains but the block has to be professionally machined and align honed for this procdedure. Which I am having done. I also had the block sonic tested to make sure it would handle .030 overbore 4.13 = 4.16. It was able to take that very nicely.
Whatever you do to a 361/391 block, you must use a special bushing to run the FE distributor. I don't have the part # handy but I've put it out here before. As of last year, Ford still had the C4TE ..... not sure on that but I can get it for you if you need it.
I think a 391 is a good block to go with for HP duty. I sure hope so....I'm sinking some $ into mine. |
| | | RE: Re: 390/391 -- Bob, 10/22/2001
Why not use the FT distributor, oil pump drive shaft and oil pump? The drive shaft is larger and the oil pump is also. |
| | | | RE: Re: 390/391 -- Mike McQuesten, 10/23/2001
The FT distributor does not have high performance/high RPM capabilities. Someone might be able to modify them. This is about all the detail I can provide you. I'm hoping that someone else will be able to provide you better specifics on the why or why not of an FT distibutor. I'd like to learn more myself about this. |
| | | | | Re: c4tz-12367-a -- Mike McQuesten, 10/23/2001
I just checked that part number for the bushing that Ford sells that allows a FE distributor to work in an FT block. It was still available last year when I picked one up. |
| Interesting FE Motor -- John M., 10/21/2001
I just bought a "360" out of a '74 or 74 F-350 to replace the 390 which lunched itself in my F-150. This motor appears to be factory rebuilt long block, with Ford rod bearings at .10 over. It has a serial number plate glued or epoxied to the side of the block just above the oil pan, but this plate isn't marked Ford. The sides of the block are what are interesting: There are raised flat ridges molded into the casting, running up and down the sides. I've never seen them before. What are they for? Do they reflect anything about this block? It has the usual 352 casting on the back but I don't know anything else about it. I've got to put his thing in Monday afternoon, so if I can get any info from the block, it would be easy now. Where would I find the casting number and serial number or any other id factor which would help me ID this engine? Thanks in advance for your help! |
| | RE: Interesting FE Motor -- Mel Clark, 10/21/2001
That would be a service block from 1968 or later. The plate you mention has been used for years by remanufacturers, this may be a Fred Jones reman. who was Ford's contracted rebuilder. |
| | | RE: Interesting FE Motor -- John M., 10/22/2001
Mel: I must confess I do not know a lot of terms, so what is a service block? |
| | | | A new engine that you could buy from Ford...... -- Ed Jenkins, 10/22/2001
..it is a replacement engine. Some times they are rebuilt or remanufactured. |
| | | Fred Jones dealerships -- Neppy, 10/23/2001
Do you know if Fred Jones had dealerships in many places? I just get curious, I thought that was an Oklahoma establishment only. Maybe just started here? The old Tulsa dealership is where my Galaxie was bought new. |
| | | | RE: Fred Jones dealerships -- Mel Clark, 10/24/2001
To my knowledge Fred Jones only serviced Ford dealerships with rebuilt engines and components from their plant in Oklahoma. At one time you could buy almost any drivetrain unit or part from Ford (except 427s) that came through Fred Jones and many times the items bought were new, not rebuilt. Ford supported the program very well. The Service Blocks I refer to are the ones that Ford sold as replacements for the various engines, the best known is the 427 that has the ribs you described, those 427s were also hydraulic lifter blocks. I don't know if they were ever used in production. Someone here has a '68 Cougar 427 and he will be able to answer that aspect. |
| | | | | RE: Fred Jones dealerships -- Darren, 10/28/2001
I think you mean 428 not 427. The ribbed blocks that where for 391 that where strong enought to bore to 4.13 making it 428. You'd have to bore 0.18" to get a 427 |
| | | | | | RE: Ribbed Block -- Mel Clark, 10/28/2001
I have a 427 Service Block that I bought new from Ford and it is a Hydraulic lifter, Ribbed block. |
| 352-427 -- Tom, 10/21/2001
i heard some where that a 352 truck motor can be bored out to the same as a 427 of 4.232is this untrue or not |
| | RE: No poor boys 427s -- R. Shannon, 10/22/2001
NO, Maybe a 391, But I don't think even it would have enough wall thickness to keep it cool (probably would be paper thin). 428 bore is more user freindly using a 428 crank and flywheel. Let's face it their is no poor boys 427 |
| | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Mike McQuesten, 10/22/2001
That's exactly right R. That 391 I mention in a post above was sold to me many years ago with a "promise" that it could take a 4.23 bore. I was skeptical then but it was only $50 so what the hey. But with sonic testing the 391 proved to be good for a .030 over 428. A 4.23 it would take but that would leave the cylinder walls too thin.
I liked your, "no poor boys 427". You'll have to dig deep in your pocket for the bucks to for a genuine 427. |
| | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Tom, 10/22/2001
ok what about gettin a 428 block i get them for about 500-800 $ and makin that into a 427 sound good? |
| | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Tom, 10/22/2001
oh yeah also on the 427 Cramer with the HEMI heads where would i get a set of them? or do i have to wait on some old lady with a 427 Crammer in her Galaxie to kick off |
| | | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Travis Miller, 10/22/2001
Sorry Tom but you are dreaming. 427's come from 427's only. And anyone who has a Cammer knows that he has PURE GOLD. |
| | | | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Tom, 10/23/2001
Damn damn damn actually about a mile frome me a lady has a Cobra Coverable she wanted what she paid like 3500 or some crap and some guy said she was crazy and told her what it is worth now she wants like 60k and she has no family im wondering what happends when she dies what happens to the car |
| | | | | | | | Sorry To Hear About You Having To Wait -- Rollie H, 10/23/2001
On an old lady to die to get a special car. I hope she never dies! |
| | | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Reagh, 10/23/2001
Dove Manufacturing, to my understanding, has all the Ford tooling for the FE's and is recasting a variety of parts in iron, aluminum and I believe magnesium. These include 427 Cross bolt blocks and HR, Tunnel Port and SOHC heads and intakes (4V, 6V and 8V). You're looking at a significant $ outlay to go this route. The task of swapping a SOHC head onto a standard 427 block, although bolting up readily, requires a significant number of SOHC specific parts that will be extremely hard to find (cams, cam bearings, cam stub shaft, front timing chain cuver, rockers, etc). Good luck, it's a daunting task. |
| | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Randall Horn, 10/23/2001
Actually there is a chance to do the 427, but it still relies on luck. I have heard from Shoe if I am right, that you need to keep your eyes peeled on the c4ae-a and c5ae-a blocks. Apparently some of them were 427 castings that were only bored to 352 or 390 sizes.
Randall |
| | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Tom, 10/23/2001
thanks Randall how can i contact SHOE to be sure |
| | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Tom, 10/23/2001
and man when she does die i dunno how the legal people handle that i dont really want it i just got a 68 Cyclone it is my new project and i lost my job the day after i got the car so i can get any car's for a while just saying someone is gonna get a Good Deal on that Cobra |
| | | | | RE: No poor boys 427s -- Randall Horn, 10/23/2001
Tom, just look at the messages below. You will see the name Dave Shoe. All you gotta do is click on his name, and it will allow you to post direct E-mail to him. Hope this helps. I have a C4ae-a block I just pulled from my 64' Galaxy and would only be so lucky as to have one of the special blocks. I'm turning it into a drag car, right now I am concidering using a 406, but the 427 has been for me as well as so many others my dream motor.
Randall |
| | | | | Someone else woulda said that. -- Dave Shoe, 10/23/2001
The 427 cylinder cores were entirely different than the other FE blocks. With only 0.39" between cylinders in a standard bore 427 block, an a specified 0.21" of water between the bores (a dimension which will allow the sand cores to hold together during handling and pouring), the cylinders are only .09" thick to start with. Because of this, Ford engineers moved the parting line of the cylinder jacket below the ring travel area to keep the thin portion of the cylinder away from the stress center. No other FE has the parting line in this position.
Also, 427s frequently got cloverleafed cylinder walls. This allowed the head-bolt torque to be transmitted to the cranksaddles with minimum cylinder wall distortion. This definitely strengthened things up.
Technically, I've noted that 428CJ/PI and 361/391FT blocks also have .21" between the cylinders (I use a drill bit set to measure the gap), just like the 427 supposedly does (I'll dissect my first busted 427s this winter to be sure my info is correct ). Note again, the "weak spot" of non-427 FE cylinders is 2" from the deck, not below the ring travel area as in the 427.
Opinion-wise, I'm gonna sit this discussion out. As I mentioned before, I'm gonna inspect some exploded 427 blocks this winter and determine for myself what a thin cylinder looks like, and what the water jacket design looks like as well.
For now, you should determine whether you feel safe driving around in a thin-cylindered engine. Also, do you know about offset boring and sonic mapping?
I'll report when I find something.
Shoe. |
| | | | | | RE: Someone else woulda said that. -- Tom, 10/24/2001
not i dont know about them im havin the car dropped off friday so im gonna fix the car up then worry about the engine im either gonna go with 351c 4v or a 427 but i cant find any 427 Blocks but i can find a buttload of 352 390 blocks so ill get workin on the car and you tell me your finding also does any body have Chrome from a 1968 Mercury Cyclone Fastback dont care what chrome but i need some also i need a hood and a left door anybody got these parts? |
| | | | | | RE: Someone else woulda said that. -- Randall Horn, 10/24/2001
Sorry Shoe. Coulda swore you said something about some of the 427 castings only being bored out to 4.00-4.05 instead of 4.23. Oh well. I still have heard of such stuff, but I haven't seed it. But I wouldn't doubt it either. Ford did a lot of strange things when it came to castings.
Randall |
| | | | | | 427 Correction. -- Dave Shoe, 11/03/2001
I previously mentioned the 427 blocks had .21" of water between their cylinders. This may be incorrect.
I just partially inspected a cloverleaf-cylindered 427 bare block at a couple places and noticed the water gap between cylinders was an astonishing 5/64" and less in the places I checked. This does add meat to the cylinders compared to what the FE design engineers had mentioned in the SAE-published "427 SOHC" papers. Perhaps the engineers were referring to the earliest 427 blocks.
Shoe. |
| Ford 9" differential change 3.00 to 3.25 -- galaxie500xl, 10/19/2001
Hi, I have a Ford Galaxie 64 with 390 and a nine inch differential stock 3.00, I want to buy a new but I don't no if the number of spline of the new one will fit and also the connection. The diffferential is a 3.25posi with 28 spline, It comes from a 1970 mustang C7AW-E K30. Thanks to everyone who reply Nicolas |
| | It should fit just fine. -- Dave Shoe, 10/19/2001
It's good that you're getting a posi from 1968-1/2 or later car, because these are Traction-Lok units, earlier ones are Equalock. Traction-lok is a better design for gripping hard under load and releasing soft for easy cornering.
Any 390 Galaxie which came with 3.00:1 rear end gears is going to have 28 splines. The only real chance that 390 would have 31 spline axles is if it was a Police Interceptor. For plain 390s to get 31 spline axles from the factory generally requires a special-order drag racing ratio of 4.57:1 or so.
You should be able to remove the axles, pop out the old differerential carrier, plop the new one in, reinstall the axles (you may damage the petrified axles seals in the process - these are cheap, common, and easy to replace), add some oil, and go.
You definitely want to use a differential housing seal (the big one that connects the carrier assy to the sheetmetal housing). I've heard advise that suggests silicone seal is all you need, but this has always failed badly in short order with me. If someone suggests that you should use silicone seal and not use a gasket, please slap them for me. I can give details, but that's a whole different story. I also use permatex hard gasket sealer with the felpro gasket (a very common gasket).
You might have difficulty getting the original 9" carrier to detach from the sheetmetal housing. If this is so, be sure to remove all the copper washers which were under the nuts. If the cast iron carrier is still too tough to budge loose (even using a floor jack), then tap all the housing studs into the housing - a floorjack will definitely pop the old carrier loose now. Note that I keep the axles in place while popping the carrier loose, as this prevents the carrier from jumping very far.
The yoke on the Mustang's differential may be designed for a smaller U-joint. You have a choice of swapping yokes (not a trivial task), or buying a fairly common "adapter type" (I forget what they're called) rear u-joint which has the Ford tall sized u-joint caps in two places, and short caps in the two other places.
Note that there is a chance you have either a 9" or a 9-3/8" carrier in your Galaxie. I won't go into details, because the Mustang carrier will fit no matter which of these diff carriers your Galaxie came with.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: It should fit just fine. -- Tom, 10/22/2001
didnt the 9 3/4 come out later like late 60's or early 70's? |
| | | | RE:9 3/4 is a 9 3/8 -- Mike McQuesten, 10/22/2001
Yes, the 9 & 3/8 ring gear came out with mega boats of the late sixties, early seventies and carried through the seventies, i.e., Linclons, FULL size Fords/Mercs like the big beautiful '75 Country Squire. I really enjoy keeping these cars for storage facilities. All the while also serving as parts donors.
Shoe's suggestion of using the differential to housing gasket is important. I also have attempted to run the best silicone sealer by Permatex and it doesn't take long for a little drip to start showing itself on the shop floor.
You're gonna like the 3.25s a lot. Very nice all around gear ratio for a mild 390. |
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