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| J - Marine/Industrial Pistons -- Mike McQuesten, 09/17/2001
This is for Mel Clark. He asked about the marine pistons that he says were forged by TRW for the 427 marine/industrial apps. I don't know if this helps much but I do know they have a J designation, i.e., C3J. ##. I got lucky and picked up a nice set of these at a swap meet a few years ago. I had plans of building a "sneaker" 352 HP. These pistons looked good for this. These forgings have a nice dish that should work well with the COAE-D heads I'm going to run. My machinist worked out the compression ratio to be 10.5:1. Marginal with available pump fuels. But with a regular mix of racing fuel, the forged pistons, I think everything will be fine. Just wanted to let you know about that part letter designation of J for industrial/marine apps. |
| FE rebuilding info -- B.A., 09/17/2001
Can anyone give me the name of a good book or manual I can follow while rebuilding my 390 GT motor? Thanks. |
| | RE: FE rebuilding info -- Mel Clark, 09/17/2001
There are several books that have been published over the years, most though, are now only available at swap meets or used book shops. For the basic dimensions. clearances and torque figures I would suggest checking at the library for old Motor manuals or Chilton publications. They have all the specs. The Haynes and Clymer manuals leave a lot to be desired. |
| | | RE: FE rebuilding info -- Mike McQuesten, 09/17/2001
I believe Steve Christ's book is still in print and available. It's "Rebuilding Your Big Block Ford". In my opinion, it's still the best that has been published regarding the FE Ford. |
| | | | RE: FE rebuilding info -- Darren, 09/22/2001
Steve Christ's book "Rebuilding Your Big Block Ford"is still in print and available. You can get it threw Summit or Dearbron. This book gives alot of great information as well as some parts numbers. |
| | | | | RE: FE rebuilding info -- David Hadley, 09/22/2001
This is an excellent book and should be able to be gotten or ordered from your local book store. The ISBN: 0-89586-070-8 from HP Books, give your local book store this info so they can order it. Here are 2 other books that offer some performance info on the FE series engines. 1) Musclecar & Hi-Po Engines, Ford Big Block from Brooklands Books ISBN: 1 85520 1062
2) Ford Performance by Pat Ganahl from CarTech ISBN: 1-884089-27-5
But you will need the Steve Christ book for the rebuild. I am using it for my S code 390GT rebuild. I haven't pulled the motor yet but will be over the next few weeks. To warn you finding New aftermarket performance parts is not easy and there is not a big selection like a 302, 351, 460 but there is a lot out there. |
| How to tell what rods -- Greg Gilliam, 09/16/2001
How do you determine which rods are in my engine( read previous posts). Thanks to all for the help thus far. Greg |
| S Code Modifications - What will interchange? -- Ted Young, 09/16/2001
I have a 69 S code, 4 speed mustang and would like to modify the motor. I have a few questions to ask of you FE experts. First off, right now I have a set of C8AE-H heads, two 360 truck motors, and a 390 motor out of a 67 Galaxie (in the mustang right now). I would like to add a 428 crank to my 390 and bore it out. What is the maximum overbore allowed on a 390? What rods and pistons must be used? What balancer must be used? Is the truck block stronger then the passenger car block? I am willing to do port work to the C8AEH heads to make the most of what I have, but plan to buy 428 CJ or 427 LR heads in the future(are these a good choice?). What do good used 428 cranks go for? What would be a good intake for this motor>? It will be for a street/strip application, and I would like it to breathe well up through 5,800-6,000 RPM. I assume a 4.11 gear in a locker rear would work well--? Do I need more gear--less gear? Which trans would run better with an appropriate gear ratio, a WR or CR toploader? Thanks.
Ted Young |
| | RE: S Code Modifications - What will interchange? -- Ed Foral, 09/16/2001
Ted If you stick with a 390 stroke, your stock block and rods are fine at the 5800 to 6000rpm range you want to run or higher. Put your money into headers, heads and intake. You can make well over 400HP and easily push your car into the 12's at the strip. An aftermarket set of aluminum heads will save some weight, and the trouble of finding factory heads and spending money on the valve and port work to make them turn on.
Ed
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| | RE: S Code Modifications - What will interchange? -- John R. Barnes, 09/16/2001
The 390 or 428 crank will work great. Use stock rods with ARP bolts, internal balance the engine so you can use the easy to find 390-427 flywheel. Use the LR 427 heads with a PI intake and some headers and you will have a great combo. Let me know if you need parts. I have the LR stuff. |
| Better info to help ID -- Greg Gilliam, 09/15/2001
O.k. I've got the engine out and disassembled and here's what I've found. Intake is cast iron with the numbers c6ae-9425g on it. the heads have c6ae-j on them. There is a huge letter A cast into the back of the block that was covered by the flywheel. The flywheel is pretty big too with spokes like an old ford or jeep wheel, It has weights and cutouts for balance. The bore and stroke measures 4"X4" ( that's as close as I can get tonight using a tape measure). There was an aluminum tag that reads 428 66 1 5K 401 S. Under the number one cylinder there is a c6me, and on the flat under the number five cyl is 5K 7 2. on the flat under the number 4 cyl is the letter E stamped sideways. The pistons are dished with valve reliefs cut into them. I haven't gotten into the bottom end yet but will before the nights over and will post back here with what I find. One more thing I am certain that it's been apart before since I've found felpro gaskets. The origins of this engine are a mystery since it just came out of a '60 T-Bird. Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks Greg |
| | RE: Better info to help ID -- richard, 09/15/2001
sounds like you have a 410 ci motor. |
| | Well, I can tell you one thing... -- Mr F, 09/15/2001
Here's the bulk of what your ID tag says:
|
428 66
1 5-K 401
S |
This boils down to: a 428
"Q"-code
engine of change level #1. It was built at
Ford's Dearborn Engines & Foundry
plant in October, 1965, for
installation during the 1966 model year. Basic engine ID 401 S was generic, meaning its not
exclusive to one car line, but was always set up for use with A/T.
To learn more, please visit our
"Obsolete Engines
Textbook". You can click that link, or use the ENGINES button found on
every page of this Forum. Hope this helps. :-)
Mr
F | |
| | | Thank you Mr. F -- Greg Gilliam, 09/15/2001
Thanks mr.F. Do all of those other numbers jive with the i.d. tag? I appreciate the help. Easier to get parts when you know what you need them for. Thanks again Greg |
| | | | Yes - those parts are correct for a '66 428. [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/16/2001
n/m |
| | | | | woohoo [ n/m] -- Greg Gilliam, 09/16/2001
b |
| | | | | | Crank numbers -- Greg Gilliam, 09/16/2001
The only numbers I see are an "N" and a "1U" near the rear. The rod and main bearings all have fomoco stamped on them with no indication of being oversized. They are even still in great shape. |
| | | Anything here about decoding tags? -- Paul M, 09/16/2001
The tag on my truck reads like his, except its a 390, and the second line has: 8J K 304 S Mine has a K where his is blank. So, how does this decode? |
| | | | Huh? Try again - type 'em, exactly. Ok? [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/16/2001
n/m |
| | | | | Response to Mr. F. -- Paul M, 09/21/2001
First, sorry this took so long getting back to you, was gone for a family emergency.
Regarding my question to you before, I was asking about decoding tags, and meant specifically if you have aything on your site about decoding them.
As far as my trucks tag goes, it reads as follows: 390 69 3 8J K 304S
390 is obvious, year is `69 with a change level of 3. Production date is November of `68
Mainly I need to know how K = 390, it supposedly being the engine code, (the engine code on my vin is an H) and what the 304S means. I know the last 4 digits are engine options, but how do you figure out what they are supposed to be? |
| what about a 406 -- nick, 09/15/2001
hey guys my boss has a nice moter i belive. he said he took it out of a recked 63 galaxie . he said its a 406 hp or super hp somthing along those lines? he claims its liks 400 or so hp stock and its only got 41k on it . is this a good moter to use . he wants 600 for it complete. ive never heard of this moter you ? is it realy 400 horse . he said it was a wery limited production . we gave it a quick take apart and reasemble and everything looks good . very tight . no rige on cylnder wall . what you guys think . i trust your opinions .thanks |
| | RE: what about a 406 -- richard, 09/15/2001
if it is what he says it is then you have a good deal on your hands.others can give specifics on what to look for. |
| | RE: what about a 406 -- Will, 09/16/2001
It sounds like a good deal. I don't know a lot about the 406, but it should have HP cast in the side, and it may or may not have cross bolted mains. Remember, the 406's were the precursor to the 427.
Some 406's also got machined combustion chambers, while earlier heads had cast chambers. (I think)
Anyway, it has the same bore as 428's, so all you need is a 428 crank, and you have a cross-bolted 428.
Or, keep the 406 crank. Either way, it's a neat engine. Well worth the $600 if it's in decent shape. |
| | | RE:In a '65? -- Mike McQuesten, 09/17/2001
Something you need to be prepared for with this '63 406 is that it will require some minor engine mount mods to fit your '65 Galaxie. All of your questions have been in relationship to that car right? The point is to be prepared. It has been done many times..fitting a '64 and earlier block into a '65 and later Ford/Merc. I haven't done it but I know it's not a tough thing to do. The $600 for that engine is a great deal "if" it's what the boss says it is. So check it out. The 406 is a true high performance engine. Never was anything else. They were rated at 405 horses with the tri power and 385 with the single Holley 4V. All had solid lifter cams. BTW, they never had machined combustion chambers that I know of. early '58 352/332s had this feature but they don't really offer performance advantages just because of the machined chambers. Now medium/high risers had machined combustion chambers....that may be what you meant. As for cross bolted main 406s, I think a few of those blocks were cast and machined as such. But only a very few. Not very likely that the 406 you're looking at will have them. It will have the internal web bosses that makes converting to cross bolts easy...if you have a set of 427 cross bolt main caps lying around. We all do don't we? |
| top loader question -- stephen, 09/15/2001
my problem is. I have a 67 390gt fairlane and some one put a 289 in it. I am changing it back over and have found my top loader is for a 351. will this trans take the power of the 390? The numbers off the trans are. RUG D2 016810 Tail Shaft 070R7A0AW 8orB |
| | RE: top loader question -- richard, 09/15/2001
the trans will take the power easily. you will have to change the input shaft or build a spacer though as the input shaft length is longer on the small block trans. dan williams top loader, or national drivetrain should be able to help you out. |
| | RE: top loader question -- Mel Clark, 09/16/2001
Your trans is from a '68 Fairlane or Falcon. 289 or 302 cid, it's a wide ratio gear box and will handle the power of most 390 engines. You will have to shorten the pilot portion of the input shaft about 3/8 inche or so (if I remember correctly) or it will bottom into the end of the crank. Careful cutting with a cut off wheel and a bit of chamfering will make it just like the 390 trans.. |
| | | RE: top loader question -- Travis Miller, 09/16/2001
You are one of the lucky ones that has the 2.78 low gear tranny. It will make the car launch like it has a lower rear gear. Do not worry about the wider gear ratio spread over the close ratio 2.32 tranny. The torque of the 390 will more than overcome the RPM drop between gears.
|
| | RE: top loader question -- mike, 09/16/2001
if you decide you want a different tranny i have a toploader with numbers rug-c2. this comes back as a 66-67 fairlane,comet etc. with a 390. if youre interested email me. |
| | RE: top loader -- Mel Clark, 09/17/2001
Don't use the 289/302 trans if you are not willing to shorten the pilot portion of the input shaft. I've already tried the spacer method and there are several reasons not to. First there is the less than secure mount, the sleeve that supports the throw out bearing needs to seat in the bell housing, then there is the matter of the throw out bearing possibly hanging on the end of the sleeve and next, the splines of the input shaft should be fully through the clutch disc which may not happen using spacers. The RUG C2 is a close ratio trans and is very good but, it works best for highway use or with 4.10 or better gearing otherwise I suggest using the wide ratio that you have. |
| 67' 410 cid Mercury -- BOYD, 09/15/2001
I am in the middle of rebuilding this motor and have noticed that some of the rocker arms are pitted. My question is should I replace all of the rocker arms or just the the ones that are pitted. I do not want to spend too much on this motor but I do not want to have to do something twice. |
| | RE: 67' 410 cid Mercury -- Flack Jack, 09/15/2001
Of course it's always best to replace them as a set considering age but it's not absolutely necessary for a good running engine. Check them closely for wear etc and if they aren't damaged you don't HAVE to replace them. I would only because I'm a 410 lover, this motor was only made for 2 years making it a fairly rare find. I have one in my '67 Marquis and wouldn't trade it for all the 390s out there. Long live the 410 and TORQUE :^) |
| | RE: 67' 410 cid Mercury -- Mel Clark, 09/16/2001
If they are pitted where the rocker pushes the valve to open it, that would be a wear mark that some times gets pretty deep. They can be resurfaced by the shop that grinds your valves as most of the machines in the better shops have the attatchment for this. |
| | | RE: 67' 410 cid Mercury -- John, 09/16/2001
Hey Boyd! So you don't want to spend much money on it , eh? Well...the pitting indicates that the whole motor is junk. Now, being the good guy that I am, I will gladly take the whole thing off your hands for a cool $200 CASH!!...OK, OK...you see right through me...all I want is the crank...but I will give you a really nice 390 crank which will allow you to save money on the pistons if you are overboring, plus I'll throw in another $200 for your inconvenience.
Now in case you missed all that...what I mean is that the 410 is a GREAT motor for the street, and also has the very desireable 428 crank that regularly sells on e-bay for over $400 (yes, even for one already at 30-30 and in need of further work). So...save up your pennies and do it right, cause the end result is an engine that's not only going to work well, but will be an investment also. If you want a set of rocker arms....I'll send you a set free(used, and for hyd lifters...I use Crane adj rocker arms as I like solid lifters) if you pay the shipping. Let me know.
John |
| | | | RE: rocker arms -- Boyd, 09/20/2001
John, thanks for the offer. Let me Know how to take care of the shipping. If you can save me a buck on this engine then I'm all for it. |
| | | | | RE: rocker arms -- John, 09/20/2001
No problem. Check your e-mail and reply with your mailing address. |
| fe heads -- anthony h. lovings, 09/15/2001
i have a set of fe heads that dont have a part number where the part number is usually found there is a set of numbers 2143 and 375. the ports and valves are larger than my 68 390gt heads. also on the bottom of one of the heads is a single letter r. the combustion chamber is also shaped different. does anyone have a clue to what they are. thanks andy |
| | Sorry - drawing a blank, here. How 'bout a photo? [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/15/2001
n/m |
| | Oh, wait a sec - something just dawned on me.... -- Mr F, 09/15/2001
i have a set of fe heads that dont have a
part number where the part number is usually found there is a set of
numbers 2143 and 375.
Any chance this engine is pre-'60? That would
make sense with those casting numbers. If I'm right, then its a good
bet these heads are from a 332CID....maybe even a 361 FT. I'm not as
familiar with these early parts so it took awhile for me to catch
on.
Mr
F | |
| | | RE: Oh, wait a sec - something just dawned on me.... -- anthony h. lovings, 09/15/2001
not sure where they came from. they were in the back of a car i purchased. it also had an intake in with the car. it is a 4v with a strange part number5751087. and it has a hole at the front of the intake by the thermostat housing that my fe book says was for putting in the oil. they also implied that this was started in 1963 and the only one pictured was the 427 intakes with this particular feature. did anyone of the others come with this feature. also there is another hole at the back of the intake. non threaded and about an inch and a half in diameter. whats that hole for. thanks for the help |
| | | | RE: Oh, wait a sec - something just dawned on me.... -- Highspeed, 09/16/2001
I think the hole in the back of the intake manifold is for the road draft tube (pre-pvc system). |
| | | | RE: Intake -- Mel Clark, 09/16/2001
Many Fords came with the oil fill and breather combination at the front of the manifold. The hole at the read is for the vent or Road Draft. There is supposed to be a screen that resembles a rolled up Brillo pad that goes into the hole and a cover that fits over it with a long tube that drops down the side of the bell housing to allow the oil vapors to escape. This may very well be a pre 1960 intake Mr F will come up with that answer. |
| 428cj motor parts -- Jamie Marchesano, 09/15/2001
Purchased a 69 Mach I with a 428cj. The motor has a vibration coming in around 1500 rpm. Found that the harmonic balancer is part # C8AE6316A2. Looking at a reference book for a 428cj it shows the balancer to be part #C8AZ6316b. Is this correct, and is there any sources to pick this part up from? All help is truly appreciated. Jamie |
| | RE: 428cj motor parts -- Royce Peterson, 09/15/2001
The harmonic balancer P/N C8AZ 6316-B is the one on your car. This balancer has a casting number of C8AE 6316 A 2. The part number refers to the finished part with packaging as kept in FOMOCO's system. I think you should remove the transmission dust cover and check for the proper counterbalanced flex plate. Your balancer is the right one for a 428 CJ or 390 or 1968 427. There is no imbalance in any FE balancer, so it wouldn't matter which one your car had it would not cause a vibration.
Keep us posted, Royce Peterson 68 Cougar GTE 427 (two of them) 68 1/2 Cougar 428 CJ Ram Air |
| | | RE: 428cj motor parts -- Jamie Marchesano, 09/15/2001
Royce, thanks for the information. The fly wheel does have the couterballance. Any other thoughts? |
| | | | RE: 428cj motor parts -- Royce Peterson, 09/15/2001
Jamie, Can you find out any information as to who might have rebuilt the engine last and what was done to it? Maybe the engine was overbored and not balanced afterwards, or Le Mans rods installed without balancing afterwards. Another possibility is the torque converter, aftermarket units have been known to have balance problems caused by sloppy brazing or welding.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | RE: 428CJ Balance -- Mel Clark, 09/16/2001
Some 428 engines had a large weight built into the vibration dampner spacer and some don't. Check to make sure your engine has the correct counter balanced spacer and post the first 5 of your VIN. |
| | | | 428 flywheel does have a balance weight cast in. -- Ed Foral, 09/16/2001
The 428/410 engines most definitely do have a unique flywheel. The dampener is not unique, except for the SCJ dampener which is wider, but still does not have a weight cast in. The SCJ had an add on counterweight integral with the spacer on the crank snout. Sounds like you have the correct style flywheel. The casting number should be visible on the flywheel. You may want to check it. The late 460 engines came with a counterbalanced flywheel which may be a different imbalance factor than the 428.
Ed |
| | | | | RE: 428 flywheel does have a balance weight cast in. -- Jamie Marchesano, 09/16/2001
Thank You All again for the input. Royce the car has a 4 speed so as Ed suggested I looked for the part number on the fly wheel. I ended up pulling the transmission etc. and there were no numbers anywhere on the flywheel. At this point Royce I went ahead and dropped the pan to confirm the crank was correct. On counterweight #7the code IU which as I understand it is the correct code for a 428cj crank. It also does not have the LeMans capscrew rods but the stock rods for a CJ Motor. Mel that eliminates the possibility of this being an SCJ and needing the balancer and counter weight required. Ed do you have any other way I can verify the flywheel is correct? Everything is indicating to me that I will need to pull the motor and have it rebalanced. Any other thoughts? |
| | | | | | RE: 428 flywheel does have a balance weight cast in. -- Scott Hollenbeck, 09/16/2001
If you want to see some pics of 428 CJ and SCJ flywheels, look here:
http://www.428cobrajet.org/id-flywheel.html
Unfortunately, it can be pretty difficult to see flywheel numbers with the flywheel installed on the engine. The numbers are on the side that faces the engine when installed, not on the friction surface side that's visible with the tranny removed.
Have you eliminated the possibility of the vibration coming from somewhere else, like the driveshaft?
Scott Hollenbeck http://www.428cobrajet.org |
| | | | | | | RE: 428 flywheel does have a balance weight cast in. -- Jamie Marchesano, 09/17/2001
Scott, was unable to open the pictures. Pulled the flywheel and there is no casting numbers on the back. It may be an after market fly wheel . The condition of the ring gear and heat cracks lead to believe it has seen some mileage. Yes eliminated the drive line as a possibility. Driving at 65mph, and taking the car out of gear. Once the motor drops below 1500rpm the vibration goes away. The cast in counter weight is 7 inches long on the outside radiuos and 5 inches on the inside. It is also 1/4" taller. Do any of the pictures you have look like this? Thanks Jamie |
| | | | | | | | RE: 428 flywheel does have a balance weight cast in. -- Scott Hollenbeck, 09/18/2001
The cast-in counterweight on an OEM flywheel is fully circular, starting from just inside the ring gear. Holes are drilled in it for balance. I think you're right, though, about it being an aftermarket flywheel. I've never seen a Ford flywheel without a cast or stamped number.
You didn't say what you were doing that resulted in no pictures from my web site, but I just looked for myself and all appears well as far as I can tell.
Scott Hollenbeck http://www.428cobrajet.org |
| | | | | | | | | RE: Web site pictures -- Jamie Marchesano, 09/18/2001
Scott, I was able to get into the web site today. Not sure why not yesterday. The picture is the same as the flywheel that I have. Where the numbers are stamped in the counter ballance area mine has none. Based on all the information, I am going to go ahead and pull the motor and have it rebalanced. It appears all the pieces are correct. Thanks for your help. Great Web site! |
| | | | | | | | | What a great web site -- Greg Gilliam, 09/18/2001
LOVE that. |
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