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 |  390GT vs 390 IP -- Warren B., 10/15/2002
Hello. I'm requesting help on 2 issues:
1. I have a 69 390 Fastback, numbers matching (ie. build sheet matches buck tag.) When I wrote Ford Canada to verify my car, they listed the engine as a 390 IP engine. Since my car came with all the features offered on a GT for 69 ( only 5396 produced), shouldnt' my car engine be listed as a GT? According to this website, FoMoCo reports that the S-390GT and
S -390 IP were different motors. It also lists that the S 390 GT was used for the 66-68 Mustangs and the 390 IP was used for the 69 Mustang. Does anyone know if
any 68 S 390 GT factory engines were placed in the 69 Mustang body? Does one need this engine to be a true factory 69 GT?
Since the Cougar, Fairlane, Montego and Mustang were supplied with the 390 IP engine according to this web-site, what would then make a 69 Ford a GT?
2. My heads show a casting of C8AE- H. I have read chat lines that these are 390 GT heads. One person reported that these heads originated from the design of the 427 C3AE-H low-riser heads. The GT heads were then machined in different sizes for various valve sizes, according to what the owner wanted. This apparently would show up as a letter "G" under Performance on the build sheet (which I have.) Does anyone know if the C8AE-H GT heads came in different sizes and if the above info is true?
Thank you! Warren B.
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|  | RE: 390GT vs 390 IP -- hawkrod, 10/15/2002
the main differences between the 68 and older GT and the 69 IP engines were the distributor, carb, intake, and cam. these items were changed to improve emissons and economy (although rumours do circulate about the engine being de-fanged to make the CJ look even better). all 69 S code cars came with the IP engine. the GT package was a trim and suspension package on the car and did not have anything to do with the engine chosen. the info you got about heads is the biggest bunch of malarkey i have read in a while. the C8AE-H GT heads are are simply the standard high velocity smog head with a different bolt pattern on the exhaust side. the head is a good head and has potential for performance. all of the C8AE-H heads came with the same size valves no matter what the application (these heads were used on all 68-71 360 and 390 engines in pickups and all car lines). your grandmas galaxie with a 390 2 barrel and grandpas F100 pickup with a 360 2 Barrel had the same heads and the same valves although there are different valve springs for performance applications. hawkrod |
 | Jahns Pistons -- Mike McQuesten, 10/15/2002
Just had to show & tell what hawkeye John Saxon found for me at the Monroe, WA, swap meet last weekend.
He'd seen these pistons last year and we'd talked about them being a good replacement for my original 352HP cast units, one of which, #8, has been broken since the summer-o-'68. The last time the '60 Sunliner has been on the street under its own power. Maybe they'd still be there.......
There they were again! Same guy selling them. John always keeps an eye out for me for that special air cleaner or whatever might be usable for my going on five year project.
Jahns .060 over 352, forged 11.5:1 slugs. Never used including wrist pins/locks and even instructions! Shall I run these with the COAE-D heads? Just kidding. I don't think I could use that kind of compression. But if I have that dome machined off making them flat tops, they should be a nice durable replacement for my resto rebuild of the original 352HP short block...someday. I know they're way too heavy by current standards. But they're just too damn cool to pass up for a mere $125 and the deal was sweetened with a full set of rings and 16 brand new ball/cup tubular pushrods!
Swap meets are still better than eBay. Thanks John for getting the deal for me.
Well I've been trying for half an hour, what a waste of time, to attach the photo but it's too big...over 550 pixels. Whoa. I can't seem to load it after reducing the size by half. So no photo showin' off for me. Trust me, they're neat pistons. |
| | RE: Jahns Pistons -- SDP, 10/16/2002
Hey Mike, wanna sell them pistons? LOL What a steal for the money................. |
| |  | Hey Mike...... -- kevin, 10/17/2002
are you sure they are forged? I have both cast and forged by Jahns. I have always had good luck with them, even though they are heavy. I have run them in BBF, SBF, and SBC. I have a start to finish pictorial from the Jahns factory showing how they are made. You can make your own cast pistons, its just time consuming. There must be fifty pictures! Its pretty cool, and when I return north next year, I will send them to you. Mo Mills at Ross Pistons used to work at Jahns FYI. I had one set in a stock car that were .080 over with the cross bolt 406 block, making a 375 cu in. That was with those "optional altitude" heads from Louie Unser that were 52 CC,s. It honked! That was the one that got away, (dont ask) but inspired me to run the 393 motors. I almost forgot about that one completely, thanks for joggin the noggin. |
| | | | RE: they're forged! -- MikeMcQ, 10/18/2002
Hey kevin/SDP, I'll e-mail you with an attached jpeg. of the Jahns/box, etc. since I can't figure out how to attach a smaller pixel pic to this forum.
Yes, they're forged for sure. It says so right on the box and then you'll see it's obvious by the piston desgin. They're a nice set and will work well for a resto 352HP.
kevin, you're saying that you ran a .080 over 352 piston w/352 crank/rods in a crossbolt 406 block to equal the 375"? Great idea. And a 393" was obtained how? I might be able to figure it out with a little math but I'm at work and don't have the time so I'm taking the lazy route....huh? 393 c.i."?
Plus tell us more about Louie Unser 52cc heads please. Thanks. |
| | | | | Its been so long...... -- kevin, 10/20/2002
that I dont recall what the head #'s were. They were about the same as my 352-360 HP heads, yet different. I think the bowls were radiused like the HR. They had a large intake runner that was different, as well as a chamber that might as well have been a 430, LOL. They came from Hutcherson, who said they were off one of the cars out of Stroppe's shop. Louie was building the engines for the mountain, that his brothers, Parnelli, Billy Wade, and a few others drove. I was barely into it at the time I was so young. The pistons were custom ordered, and it had LeMans rods. While it was in a street car that the sponsors son had, (64 "R" code Gal) he was drunk and running from the cops, lost control, flew off a curve, moved a mobile home of its frame about 4 feet, and was hit by the cop who did the same thing. He was so drunk, he started fighting with the cop (a long rivalry) before he blacked out from loss of blood. He ended up with 180 some stitches in his face!, (I had to tell it, as some people are just flat out STUPID!). The heads ended up on my 67 427 Fairlane (after a stint on the Shelby). I sold it to a college kid (after he begged me for so long, since I built his neighbors Fairlane, and the old green eyes took over!) and he wrapped it around a tree a week later around Ames Iowa where he went to school (ISU). I never saw it, them, or him again after repeated attempts to convince his parents it was not my fault (they blamed me, HA!) and I wanted to buy it back. My 393's were simply a (std) 427 block with the same internals. They run harder yet, due to the bigger bore. Interesting enough, Nascar came up with a 400 cube limit in late 63. Ford developed the "396" for this cause. It was a HR w/TRW pistons. It had to be turned an extra 4-5 hundred RPM's to equal the 427's output, and there was concerns among the engineers it would not live due to the problems encountered with earlier failures of the FE on the track. The rule was dropped in time for the start of the 64 season, and the rest is history. I have some nifty pics of the engine, and it's unique "396" (instead of 427) flag decals on the valve covers, as well as on the cowl induction Nascar air cleaner, and would consider them one of the greatest finds for my collection. So if any of you out there have any, and want to make some money.....How are things up your way, snowing yet? I actually saw people with coats on last night at the track. I was in a T-shirt and got funny looks, as it was so cold...like 72 degrees, LOL. |
| | | | | | RE: Its been so long...... -- Mike McQuesten, 10/21/2002
Thanks kevin for the details and great stories.
Ford did run the 396 c.i. configuration in early '67 with the Fairlane due to NASCAR rules that limited Ford to 400-under with the F'lane/Comet body. Can't remember the details. It just seems it was another attempt to keep Ford from dominating. But I do know that those 396/427 Fairlanes were way closer to "real" automobiles compared to the rear wheel drive/351W powered plastic fantastics being passed off as "stock" cars of today. And of course the rear drive Montes/Grand Prixs, etc.
Can you tell me what stock car FoMoCo offers today running anything close to a 351W? Think back to '61 and what it would be like to see a '61 Ford screaming around the tracks with a flathead Merc! Crazy huh? And a two door rear drive Viagra Taurus is any different?
Thanks again kevin. E-mail me and I'll send you a couple of shots of those Jahns Slugs. |
| | Saw those at the swap! -- Paul M., 10/25/2002
> Just had to show & tell what hawkeye John Saxon found for me at the Monroe,
> WA, swap meet last weekend.
>
That's my neck o' the woods. I saw those pistons, but couldn't imagine what I would use `em for. Guess I should have just bought them. Oh well, no big deal.
I did walk away with a 1U crank for a decent price, and a set of C8OE-N heads too. Just wish I could have had that NOS 428 service block. Just didn't have the cash, as I had just spent it on the crank and heads :)
I'm interested in hooking up with fellow FE fanatics around here, as I'm always looking to learn more. I also have some spare parts lying arund, taking up space... |
| cam bearings -- Fred Cummings, 10/15/2002
got CJ block back from machine shop and looking at the cam bearings the oil holes are at 6 oclock instead of at 3, what effect will this have on oil preasure,should I have them replaced ,thanks for any info. |
| | RE: cam bearings -- John, 10/15/2002
Same thing with my last two engines...I have had oil pressure problems, but I am sure that it was not because of this. I doubt it will be a problem. The Ford factory manual plus Steve Christ's book both say to match up the bearing holes with the block which is what you seem to have. And doesn't #2 and #4 have extra holes for the head galleries? So you should be able to tell from that wether they are installed correctly or not. I'll check on this next time I get a chance. Anyone else got an opinion? |
| | | RE: cam bearings -- fred cummings, 10/16/2002
thanks John, I was comparing the bearing loc. with a PI and a 105 original block, which the holes are located at 3 oclock will give it a try thanks again,, |
| | | | It will run of course........ -- kevin, 10/17/2002
its just not ideal. The 3 o'clock is the best for the wedge of oil. John, if yours has two holes, they are for a side oiler. Standard blocks have the grooves and need no holes. Most machinest's never have figured it out, they just slap em in. |
| | | | | RE: It will run of course........ -- fred cummings, 10/17/2002
Thanks Kevin, you are so right about the cam bearings, it is hard to find a good shop, just changed shops, second time this block has had it`s bearings changed, old nos 427 bearings that they didn`t realized was different was in fact installed , that is why I looked it over very carefully this time. Crank is in sooo bearings will stay ---thanks again |
| 390 back in 67 gt s-code -- blackhawk, 10/13/2002
i want to put the big block back in my mustang (bought w/small block)what do i need to look for when getting 390. i have heard some talk about head bolt pattern, vertical versus diag. what is difference and which do i need. does it matter? i do have a 63 390 which came out of t-bird that i can use, or can i? exhaust pattern is vertical, same as heads. any other info i need would be helpful as well. please help clear this up for me. thanks. |
| | RE: 390 back in 67 gt s-code -- Mike McQuesten, 10/13/2002
That '63 block can be made to fit but I'd recommend not using it. I think it would be better to use a '65 & newer block that has the correct engine mount holes that are compatible with the '67 Mustang big block mounts.
As for heads you'll want to use heads that are designed to accept the GT 390/uni-body big block exhaust manifolds. Good heads to use are C6AE-R; C7AE-A. My preference(something I've learned from reading this forum for awhile)would be the C6AE-R. They offer everything you need to build a set of GT 390 heads or they are easily modified to work as well as '28 CJ - C80E-N.
If you're not intrested in concours correct '67 Mustang 390, go with FPA headers/C6AE-R heads on a well built 390/428. As has been noted numerous times, the original exhaust manifolds used on '66 - '69 FE powered uni-body cars are very restrictive thus causing real limitations on strong high performance.
Your questions make me think of my neighbor down the road who has a '68 -S- code GT fastback 4 speed collecting dust in his garage. It's the dark Steve McQueen/Frank Bullet green with gold stripes & black interior. He replaced the original 390GT circa 1974 with a 302-4V. Kept the 2.32 close ratio big block gear box & 3.25 rear gears. All this in an attempt to get better gas mileage. At that time it seemed like a good idea. Now the best idea would be to sell it to me. |
| | | thanks for tip.. -- blackhawk, 10/14/2002
i will search for newer 390...any idea where a good place to find one?
still curious to know what difference is in head bolt pattern.
my mustang is a dark green fastback, 4spd, just like frank bullits 68, only mine is a 67. but that is what i am going for. |
| | | | RE: what to look for... -- Mike McQuesten, 10/14/2002
Most heads cast from '66 on had a boss that allowed for the new style uni-body exhaust manifold. It's a very obvious thing to see. You can hope to find a set where those bosses are already drilled/tapped to accept the manifolds but most importantly is just that the bosses be there so that you can drill/tap them if you want to use the original manifolds which as I opinionated that I don't think you should.
Standard FE heads for full framed pass. cars ran a straight up/down vertical bolt pattern thus just eight holes. The uni-body heads for '66-'69 390s ran a 14 bolt arrangement. I still don't have a scanner to offer a picture for you. There were four holes in the first & last exhaust ports, two vertical & two somewhat horizontal. The middle two ports ran three holes, one on top and two horizontal. There's been a lot written about this and maybe someone can scan a shot for you.
Now CJ/C8OE-N heads ran 16 bolt holes that allowed you all the flexibility you needed. You could run any exhaust manfold, i.e., standard log, CJ, GT, HP short/long. Anything as long as you had engine bay room to run whatever.
Again, just run good headers that are specifically designed for your heads and your Mustang. Good luck getting back to what should be powering your '67 GT. |
| 390 Serial Number location? -- Mike, 10/13/2002
I have a 69 S Code Mach 1. I cannot find a serial number on the engine block. I looked every where I could think of. Even removed the starter and could not find it there. Any help would be appreciated! |
| | Get a mirror........ -- kevin, 10/13/2002
and look at the drivers rear of the block where the head bolts on. Sometimes its on the head, somtimes not at all. If there, it will have some of the vin # in it. |
| C7AE-A Heads Compatability -- Charlie e, 10/12/2002
Well, originally started as a 64 T-bird, and research has indicated this is not exactly true when it comes to the engine. The Heads are identified with C7AE-A heads and on a 66 block with a 66 intake manifold.
The rt exhust mainfold is id as C3SE and the left is id as C5TE. Are these heads consistant with all applications. |
| Headers for '61 T-Bird? -- Darel, 10/12/2002
Are there any headers that will fit the 390 in a '61-'63 T-Bird? I'm looking mainly at cost and ease of installation, assuming there is a brand out there that will clear the fenderwells in this engine compartment. How about the factory cast-iron headers used on 406s and 390 HPs?
Thanks!
Darel
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| | RE: Headers for '61 T-Bird? -- TOM, 10/13/2002
i dony think there would be any issues with a setof factory ones just send them out to extrude hone and your good to go |
| | | Factory shorty's wont fit..... -- kevin, 10/13/2002
period. However, there is a company called FPA that makes them. They are the tri-Y style, and have good clearance. |
| | | | RE: Factory shorty's wont fit..... -- Rob, 10/14/2002
Yeah Id go with FPA's, have been looking for my 65 tbird for around 5 years now, no other header will fit with that d* spring tower, nor will it with the power steering, sorry man, its better to either get those spring towers cut outta there, or buy FPA's which ain't the cheapest, but i hear their the best... I just got a 64 Fairlane which had tubular top A arms placed on it to lose those towers, a world of difference. I know its a different body style, but im sure the clearance ain't good either.
JMO
Rob |
| | | | | RE: FPA not made for '61-63 -- '61 Crazy Birdman, 10/14/2002
Not sure why, but FPA skips '61-'64. It really looks like a tight squeeze in there, regardless. Probably not an "easy" install if they did make them. Worst case, I like the idea of extrude honing manifolds, gain a few horses.
PS. Be VERY careful about removing FE exhaust manifold bolts. Plan ahead and use lots penetrating oil days in advance...crack the bolt by actually tightening a hair first...then...back out. Sheared bold heads are common and painful. |
| Exhaust manifold ID -- Charlie e, 10/12/2002
Checked id on manifolds, the rt has c3se, from another posting it says 60's, 1963, Thunderbird application. But I am puzzled at the left, the number starts with c5te. What is this from? |
| | RE: Exhaust manifold ID -- Barry B, 10/12/2002
Does it look like this? If so, it's the RH (passenger) side pickup manifold used from '65 - '70. The outlet on the pickup manifold comes out straight while the car one angles downward. Sorry for such a crappy pic but it's all I got.
 |
| | | RE: Exhaust manifold ID -- Charlie e, 10/12/2002
Thanks for the comeback:
I made an impression with aluminum foil, and the whole number is : 5TE9431-B. This being the left side, the outlet is in the middle pointing down. The number 9431 seems consistant with auto applications. Starting to think I have a Johnny Cash automible. LMAO |
| | | | Oh, so it is the driver's side -- Barry B, 10/12/2002
Opps, bad assumption! With that info, you have the driver's side pickup manifold used from '65 - '67. Is the outlet flange flat or does it look like it takes a donut? |
| | | | | RE: Oh, so it is the driver's side -- Charlie e, 10/13/2002
It takes a donut |
 | Extra Tall Oil Fill Tube -- Mike, 10/11/2002
Does anyone know where to find an oil fill tube for the FE engine (goes into right front of intake with oil cap on top), which is about 3" taller than the typical one that is being reproduced? I need this for a unique application and have seen an old picture of an engine with this longer one, any leads would be appreciated even what car it may have been used in. Thanks. |
| | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- Tom, 10/11/2002
rest assured if the time for me to ever has kids comes i can assue you they will be FORD people and if not well then adoption ahoy lol jk |
| | | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- Martin, 10/11/2002
Before worrying about creating the next generation of Fe-natics you MUST MAKE EVERY EFFORT to assure that your spouse understands the committment Fe natics have to their passion and that they are unlikely to change. Most but not all (I hope) women see our old Fords as Dinosaurs that take time and money away from home improvements, buying her a nicer new car etc. Don't you often read about someone who now regret trading his Mach1 or similar car in for a station car ?
If you don't do this and an unhappy spouse makes your hobby a living hell you kids surely will not want to emulate you.
A long-time Fe natic, I know, used to make sure that the first date and several following dates were at races, swap meets etc. That would help narrow down the field pretty quickly. He is now married.
My authority is unquestionable. I take my son to kinder garten every day in my 69 Cougar XR7 convertible - though my wife hates the car. |
| | | | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- John, 10/11/2002
Yep, my 9 year old son loved the movie "The Fast and the Furious"(God help him), but he liked Gumball Rally better(Yeah!) and can't get enough of driving in my 427 Cobra (AC). Mind you he still wishes I had the 66 Mustang (289). So do I. Wife wanted me to sell it as I had 1 to many hobby cars. Wife is gone now, but the memory remains...er....of the car I mean......chuckle. |
| | | | | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- TOM, 10/11/2002
haHAHAA you guys kill me im the same way im not INTO FE's as much i like 335 series alot also but still i make sure women understand my passion for cars even if they dont like it as long as they repect it and never question buying stupid stuff its all good |
| | | | | The Slow and the Tedious. -- Dave Shoe, 10/12/2002
I saw a smidgen of "The Fast and the Furious". Fortunately, it was only about ten minutes worth at my sister's house, over a holiday visit.
The portion I saw was the road race between the wheelie-popping Roadrunner and some over-nitroused import.
The stoplight was red. The train tracks were a certified quarter mile ahead. The first to cross would win everything (which was, as I recall, nothing).
Light turns green. Roadrunner launches with usual wheelie. Import does whatever imports do to get off the line.
They show the cars rowing through like twenty gears or so, boring the HELL outta me. At about gear forty three the import hits the NOS button and lunges from about three feet behind the front of the Roadrunner to about three feet ahead of it. The train tracks remain ahead in the distance.
This segment was like the most BORING three minutes of my life. I've never seen it take so long for ANYTHING to run two blocks down the street.
Shoe. |
| | | | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- Paul G., 10/13/2002
Martin,
Bummer about your wife hating the 69 XR7 Convertible. My wife loves mine, so do my kids. Every fall we use my Cougar convertible to escort part of the homecoming court at the high school where my wife teaches. The kids love the car, and we always get tons of compliments
As for the next generation, my 18 year old next door neighbor just finished building a 400+hp SBC camaro. I know it is not an FE, but at least he hates the fart can imports and enjoys stomping them. My 13 daughter and I are going to Raceway Park at Englishtown NJ tomorrow to look for parts for the 1970 VW convertible we are restoring for her first car. I know, it is not even a ford, but at least it's a classic. And she thinks the stickered up hondas are a joke.
Alas, Wednesday night my kids and I watched Bullit together. After seeing Steve M. working that FE Mustang my 11 year old son has decided that a big block sixties stang is far cooler than all the 5.0's and 4.6's he had been drooling over for the last few years.
It appears as though his jedi training may be well on its way.
All is not lost because a few young knuckleheads insist on building 10000rpm imported hand grenades. Give them some time, they'll come around.
Paul Garvin |
| | | | | RE: the next generation, lord help us -- Rob, 10/14/2002
Hahaha, i agree with Tom, if my kids don't have Ford Blue Blood, then adoption lol, don't worry about the rice burners of now, every kid I know that drives them knows not a damn thing about a car. Only that a cold air intake and a coffee can exhaust improve power....surrrrreeeeeee.... Yeah ive seen a ricer go 10's every once in a blue moon, but god help the person who put all the money into it to get it into the 10's, i swear, I never seen more tubular chassis's in my life.
Rob |
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