Skip Navigation Links.
 |  C8AE-H worth using? -- Greg, 09/20/2002
Nothing extreme, just a 390 with mild cam, aluminum 4 bbl, and ex manifolds. Are they worth using?
|
 | smashed lifters and cam -- Guest, 09/20/2002
I'm new to this tech forum but was hoping someone could help out with a problem my friend had with his 390. He just had it completely rebuilt, bored .030 over, with a Federal Mogal RV cam, Hyper-Eutectic pistons, sealed power lifters, new rocker arm assembly with 428CJ valve springs. The heads were completely rebuilt by NAPA. The problem happen when he started it up and it was making a light ticking noise. First thought was a lifter, so started taking off manifold to check out lifters. We pulled all the lifters out and everyone was completely destroyed and burnt! There are serious grooves wore on the lifters. Were takin' at least a 1/16th deep groove or more. My question is " what the hell happened?" The engine only ran for 8 minutes. We double checked every part number and all the parts were correct. Any help would be appreciated. |
| | RE: smashed lifters and cam -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
no or wrong lub on cam to lifter surface.Needs high pressure moly or lifter prelub. oil only will not stand up to high break in pressure. Also need 20 minutes of above idle running at first start up. very important. Also hard to do.........but starting a new engine a just let it warm up at idle does not help.Thats my 2 cents. Ray |
| |  | RE: smashed lifters and cam -- Guest, 09/20/2002
For cam and lifter installation, i used Federal Mogul brand cam & lifter assemble lube. When I started it for the first time I ran it at 2000 RPM for approx. 8 minutes and was worried about the noise. And that's when we tore it apart. |
| | |  | You did no wrong, bad part? -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
n/m |
| | | | That is an odd failure. -- Dave Shoe, 09/21/2002
I suspect the lifters were not designed for that cam. Whether the spherical diameter at the face of the lifter was incompatible with slope on the lobe, or it was maybe a mechanical cam matched to hyd lifters, or maybe a set of lifters with defective induction hardening, I can't say.
Dirt in the passages would not likely kill all the lifters. It wouldn't likely score the faces of any of them. It would just make some function poorly after a while.
I have heard for a while that there are some bad FE lifters out there. I can't see FM offering them for sale, though.
I don't quite understand the "continuous 2000 RPM" technique. It's been a while since I've reviewed cam break-in procedures, but I recall varying the RPMS during the first several minutes of break-in to prevent hot spots(?) on the lifter or lobe. I don't know where I read this, or whether it's good logic, but it worked in my case. I seem to recall that holding one steady RPM was not recommended by mthat particular cam manufacturer.
How long before you first noticed the noise?
Also, how did the oil pressure look (if a gauge was hooked up)?
I suspect a full teardown is in order, but that's just my way of doing things.
Shoe. |
| | | | | RE: That is an odd failure. -- Guest's friend, 09/22/2002
He said that they noticed the sound right away. But they thought it was a lifter that hadden't got properly lubed yet. It wasn't a full steady 8 minutes. He had to start and stop it a couple times because of starter failure. He said the oil pressure was really good. He put a high volume oil pump and that there was plenty of oil when he pulled the lifter out. Since I wasn't there I don't know all the little details. I appreciate all your responses. Last I heard he is pulling the engine apart this weekend to see if any more damage had been done. The store that he bought the cam and lifters from is wanting to send them back to the manufacturer to see if it was a bad part. Man that's gotta suck. |
| | | | |  | Tough one. Let us know what happens, Ok? [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/22/2002
n/m |
| | Plugged block? Did you ream & clean passages, etc.? [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/20/2002
n/m |
| | I agree with Mr. F and have 2 more cents to offer -- John, 09/20/2002
Sounds like foriegn material still in the block from all the machining operation. Often, machine shops will tag cranks and blocks and heads etc stating a disclaimer about home assembly and stating for the assembler to thoroughly clean the part. Grooves sound like iron bits to me. Better check your bearings and hope the crank didn't get scored also. If the crank and it's bearings look like new, then I'd suspect insufficient or the wrong assmebly lube on the cam. Also, you may not have lifters matched to the cam as they were from different manufacturers. I use Crane cams and always install Crane lifters....just in case. Hope the damage is limited to what you've found but I doubt it. |
| | | Yeah, John - sure doesn't sound good. :-P [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/21/2002
n/m |
| 428cj -- MIKE SHAW, 09/20/2002
Ihave a 428cj motor trying to find out what year it is and what it came out of the number on the block is c6me-a |
| | RE: 428cj -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
c6me,a 66-70 390 or 428 |
| | What's the date code on the block? -- Royce Peterson, 09/20/2002
Look next to the oil filter adapter near the oil pan rail.
Royce Peterson |
| fe Heads -- brett, 09/20/2002
What is the difference between C7AE-A heads and C8AE-H heads? Would C7AE-A be correct on a 68 390 mustang? Thanks |
| | What's the date code? N/M -- Royce Peterson, 09/20/2002
o |
| | RE: fe Heads -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
c7ae-a 67 428/gt500 2.02 int 1.55 exh 1,34 X 1.93 intake port 71-74 cc 14 bolt exhaust c8ae-h 68/69 39i0gt 68 gt500 2.02int 1.55 exh 1.34 X2.34 intake port 71-74cc 14 bolt exhaust. I think this right,ray |
| | | Correction port size -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
measured c8ae-h heads i have off intake ports are also only 1.93 tall..sorry..books wrong..tape measure right.. |
| | | | Hey Ray, cc those heads -- Barry B, 09/20/2002
C8AE-H heads have smaller "kidney bean" chambers and are 68-71cc, just like the D2s.
What book are you looking at? |
| | | | | ford parts identifier -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
warner robert product 1993 looseleaf with gt40 on cover |
| | | | | | corrected book ...thanks -- mutangoldtimer, 09/20/2002
68.1-71.1 cc? |
| | | | | | Warner Roberts? Ugh...just wrap fish in it, Ray. :-) [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/21/2002
n/m |
| | Here is why I asked... -- Brett, 09/21/2002
I sent my 68 390 gt to be rebuilt. The rebuilder said the orginal heads were too "messed up" to be rebuilt, but that he had the exact replacements ready to go. I told him that I need them to be the same casting # because I'm trying to keep this a matching #s car, but when the engine came back the heads were C7AE-A. What should I do? Are the correct C8AE-H heads hard to find? |
| oil pan for fe -- Charlie, 09/20/2002
Any one ever use moroso's deep sump fe pan ( http://moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=11908 ) on a mustang? Any clearence problems. I'm looking to add some extra oil storage to a front sump pan, on a hard run street cruzer, but don't want to catch any road hazards with a 1" drop shelby mod and have no oil in the oan.
Any sugestions would be welcome. Already going to use windage tray.
|
| | Try a winged pan -- John, 09/20/2002
Winged pans hold as much oil and have less depth. Cast Aluminum pans such as the one made by Tony Branda work fine for a heavy car like a Mustang, but if they hit anything, they will crack like an eggshell. Aviad makes an aluminum pan that holds 9 quarts, but is very expensive. It was original equipment on the AC Cobra. If you can find a winged steel pan you may have made the best choice for your car. If you do hit something, it will dent and the crack, if any will likely be small and you won't ruin your engine before you discover the leak. |
| New Intake install -- Ryan, 09/19/2002
I have a 1974 F-100 w/390
I have just replaced mt stock 2bbl intake and carb with an edelbrock performer and holley 4bbl carb. Now I can't get the distributor to fully seat. Or so I think!? The distributor meshes with the gears and oil pump drive shaft, but the upper distributor seal is only half into the intake. Seems it should drop another 1/2 inch? Is it supposed to be like this? Please HELP! I have spent hours on this supposed problem and have tried everything with no result. Seems this is how it is supposed to be? |
| | RE: New Intake install -- 63Ford, 09/20/2002
It might be the sealant used to seal the front of the intake to the top-front of the block. Unless you used a gasket instead. I was just thinking that maybe the sealant oozed out too much when you put your intake on and your distributor is getting caught in it? Just a thought. That happened to me on mine not too long ago but I managed to get it in all the way. |
| | Relax...sounds like the oil pump drive shaft... -- Dan Davis, 09/20/2002
...is not aligned with the distributor. Pull the dist out and look down the hole. See the hex shaft in the middle. That's the OP drive. Use a 1/4" drive long extension with a 1/4" or 5/16" deepwell (I forget which for an FE) socket and turn the shaft ever so slightly counterclockwise and try it again. You may have to do this two or three times to get the shaft aligned enough for the dist to drop in.
Tape the socket to the extension with a piece of electrical tape for insurance that it does not come off the extension and fall into the pan.
Dan |
| | | RE: Relax...sounds like the oil pump drive shaft... -- John, 09/20/2002
I agree with Dan, even though you've said you think it's meshed properly. I do it a different way...Put in the distributor the way you have, then rotate the engine CW with a socket wrench on the Harmonic Balancer Bolt while exerting down pressure on the distributor. Take the plugs out and this will be easier. Also, sometimes those distributor seals can take more force than you realize to drop into the manifold. An easy way to check is to drop a small ruler down to where the block supports the distributor (not where the block provides a bearing for the rotating shaft) and measure to the top of the manifold. Then measure your distributor. You can then tell if there's a problem with the manifold or not (which I doubt). Finally, when you removed the distributor, the oil pump drive shaft may have come out of the oil pump. There's supposed to be a press-on wwasher on the shaft to prevent this, but maybe it's missing. If the end of the shaft is resting on top of the oil pump, the shaft will be up to high and may be preventing the distributor from going in all the way. In this case you will have to remove the pan and the pump to set things right. Personally, I suspect the new distributor seal just takes more pressure to insert than you suspect. |
| | | | Just had this problem yesterday... -- Darel, 09/21/2002
I agree it's the oil pump shaft. I pulled my distributor to set my timing (vac advance wouldn't let me turn the housing far enough) and spent the next hour moving it in minute increments trying to get that damn shaft to line up again. Problem with the Fords is that the distributor gear starts to engage before the pump drive, unlike, for instance, the Internationals I had, which were driven just by a slot (no special priming tool other than a screwdriver) that was deep enough to accept the shaft, then you could put the rotor anywhere you want before engaging the distributor gear since you already had it lined up in the oil pump. By the way, I didn't install a new seal or anything so I know that wasn't it.
D |
| | RE: New Intake install -- Don, 09/22/2002
I had the same problem with my EDL Performer. I had to take the intake back off and reinstall it less hardware. Then I installed the distributer, then bolted down the intake. It seems that the distro opening in the intake was slightly misaligned and would not allow the distro base to clear. Everything sealed up great. |
| | RE: New Intake install -- Ryan, 09/24/2002
OK! I am still not having any luck whatsoever with this distributor. Looks like the intake is going to be reinstalled this weekend and the distributor dropped before the intake is torked down.
Will this cause any unwanted stress on the distributor after all is assembled again? ie excessive distributor gear wear? That is if everything drops into place like it should!?
I appreciate all the input......Ryan
http://www.geocities.com/bozo_1974 |
| | RE: New Intake install -- Ryan, 09/26/2002
It worked! After another 2-3 hours of intake, rockers, etc removal...I was able to reinstall the intake and drop in the distributor before tightening everything down. Thanks for all the help! |
| | | RE: New Intake install -- rick, 09/28/2002
ryan,
i have had this happen many times. if you would take your distributor out right now and try to set it back in, it would probably give you the same grief you just went through. i would say that 19 out of 20 times it will give you trouble. this is not only a problem with the fe's it is with all of the ford engines.
when your distributor is set into place, in the proper position and it only drops partway down,(1/2 inch from bottoming) put slight down pressure on the distributor with your hand and have someone very quickly bump the starter a few times, the distributor will drop right into place. if you don't have help you can do it yourself with the use of a remote starter button on the solenoid. i learned this while working in a ford dealership 30 years ago. i have done this hundreds of times and has never failed. hope this will save you from some future aggravation.
rick |
| | | | RE: New Intake install -- Ryan, 09/28/2002
I had no luck whatsoever with trying to pressure the distributor. I just removed the intak, reinstalled the gaskets & intake, and the droped the distributor into place before placing the intake bolt into place and torking them down. All has been perfect since, including pulling the distributor and droping it back into place. |
| What will clean antifreeze and oil goo .... ? -- John, 09/19/2002
Due to a leaking head gasket I now have a short block still installed in my car. Heads and everything are off. Pan is off. Engine has a lot of yellow goo (like thinned white lithium grease) over everthing. What's the best way to get rid of this without removing and dissassembling the short block (don't want to because bearings and everything are OK)? I was thinking spraying it with either WD40, kerosone, or varsol, then putting the pan on temporarily and rotating the oil pump with clean oil in it. Any ideas? Also, I once heard of something called butyl cellusolve that people mixed in with their oil and than ran the engine to get rid of anti freeze. What exactly is that stuff and where do you purchase it? Can it be sprayed on, then rinsed off with something? |
| | My personal fave is steam-cleaning. Call local car wash. [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/19/2002
n/m |
| 390 heads on 352?? -- Mike Haldaman, 09/19/2002
I am rebuilding a 1966 galaxie 500 with a 352-4v. the heads on the engine now are c6ae-R. i have acquired a set of early 70s 390 2-v heads. which heads would be better to use??its gonna be pretty much a stock engine, small cam, weind intake, and headers and holley 4-barrel.
thanks |
| | C6AE-R. The only way to go!! -- Tim johnson, 09/19/2002
Heads used on 352 and 390 engines are interchangeable.
The C6AE-R head is an outstanding cylinder head that was also standard equipment on the 66 7 Liter (428) Galaxie as well as the 66 352.
I have personally compared the C6-R head side by side with the C8OE-N Cobra Jet head. Here's what I found.
The only differences are that the intake runner on the C6-R head take about 10cc's more fluid due to the the lower angle of the intake port, and the exhaust port has a small downturned lip at the roof on the exhaust port.
So here's what I'd do to make these heads really work well for street performance. You can pick and choose as you see fit.
Pocket port the exhaust bowel. Remove the approximately 1/8" downturned lip (this will make the exhaust port like the CJ's).
Install hardened exhaust seats then fit the heads with CJ valves.
You'll end up with near CJ performance at a fraction of the price. Oh! you have the option of drilling the exhaust to convert to the 16 bolt CJ exhaust pattern for better exhaust manifold sealing.
Other neat things to do for hot street performance is to replace the rocker shaft spacer springs springs with solid spacers. Use head studs instead of the old bolts, and buy billit aluminum rocker shaft stands.
Anyway, hope that this post has been helpful!
TJ |
| | | I dunno - the late heads are very efficient. -- Dave Shoe, 09/19/2002
C6AE-R is the way to go when you plan more than 450 horsepower from an FE, and also when you've got a lot of cubes to get the runners working.
The emissions-era "velocity" head which first showed up in 1966 offers fantastic performance in smaller cubed FEs, and FEs up to about 400 horses. The response time and torque is logically better than the larger runner heads when the RPMs are low to moderate. The 428 PI was a great performer with small-runner velocity heads.
Since a 1966 352 starts out with a rather low compression ratio (9.2:1 if I recall), the later D2TE-AA heads will also bump you a couple of tenths on the compression.
It also comes down to the condition of the heads. If the valves are sunk onto the seats on one casting due to too many valve jobs and too many miles, you may want to make your decision based on the cost of a proper head rebuild.
Both heads will do well for you. Recognize that headers which match to one head will likely not port match to the othe head. The C6AE-R has a high-exit exhast port (with a removable dam cast in which makes it appear centered), and the D2 has a low exit port position.
The intake you select may also drive which head you should choose. Study the port match.
JMO,
Shoe. |
| Hamonic balancer color -- Brett, 09/18/2002
I've got the 390 out of my 68 mustang. I am detailing it this weekend and was wondering the color of the harmonic balancer.
Thanks in advance |
| | Plain ol' Black. [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/18/2002
n/m |
| | | RE: Plain ol' Black. [n/m] -- Scott Hollenbeck, 09/19/2002
Mr. F:
I've also seen original-appearing FE balancers wearing Dark Corporate Blue, which would seem to make sense if one assumes that they were on the engine when the engine was painted. Do you have any insights into balancer installation before or after engine painting?
I can see service replacements being painted black...
Scott Hollenbeck
http://www.428cobrajet.org
Mustang 428 Cobra Jet Registry |
| | | | I agree -- Royce Peterson, 09/19/2002
Service replacements had black paint to prevent corrosion while sitting on the shelf. Originals are painted along with the rest of the engine after assembly and should be blue.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | RE: Yes Blue! -- Ray, 09/19/2002
It will look good. Ray |
| | | | | | Thanks everyone; I'll go black w/ blue overspray -- Brett, 09/19/2002
n/m |
| | Might look nice, but any blue on that part is overspray. [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/19/2002
n/m |
| | Just a note.... -- John, 09/20/2002
I paint mine black. Just looks nicer regardless of the original colour. If you paint it blue, it looks like the kind of "quickie" paint job the machine shop might do if they have rebuilt your engine.....i.e. el cheapo!(you know, protruding gasket edges painted and everything!) Incidentally, I sold my 66 Mustang about 3 years ago for $5500. The lady who bought it dropped by last fall to show me her apraisal for $18,500. God bless her! Anyway, as I had restored the car quite a while before she bought it, she had some detail work done which included spraying the alternator and the power steering pump with Aluminum paint. Just awful! I had the pump black and the alternator natural aluminum with the center laminations painted black. So, black is cool for all accessories, NOT aluminum, NOT chrome, and NOT blue! And yes, I know FE afficiendos, it was a 289 in the Mustang! |
| | | Interesting story, John. 'Aluminum paint?' Sheesh... :-P [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/20/2002
n/m |
| | | RE: Just a note.... -- Pete, 09/21/2002
many times aluminum cast paint is used on pieces to make then look new again. Obviously bead blasted is best, but some dull aluminum paints look OK. Some you can barely tell they were painted. Note, this is a dull aluminum cast look paint, not shiney. |
| | | | OK - flat or semi-flat isn't so bad, in moderation.[n/m] -- Mr F, 09/21/2002
n/m |
| | | | | Looks Cheap! -- John, 09/21/2002
Billet aluminum, even chrome are OK, though I like the industrial look of black paint on the peripherals. If you must use Aluminum or silver paint, then I suggest a good clear coat over it...but still....tacky, tacky, tacky.....
P.S. I once heard of a local fisherman who spray-painted his entire engine (in-line 6) with Aluminum paint. Every time he touched it he got a shock. Well, every time he looked at it, he should have been shocked too!.....chuckle |
| | | | | | Odd fact: Ford of Canada painted some engines silver. [n/m] -- Mr F, 09/22/2002
n/m |
| | | | | | read that..... -- Pete's Ponies, 09/12/2005
dull aluminum paint. It makes a difference in the look. Shiney aluminum engine paint is not what I am talking about. |
| | | | | | | RE: read that..... -- John, 09/12/2005
Oops....what can I say? "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? "It's your car....you can do with it what you want"? Whatever you do, I am sure it will look good....well maintained and clean, etc. Personallizing one's car is just that....making it your own with a somethings different so it's not just another car. Sorry if I was a little out of line about the paint. I get carried away sometimes. |
| Looking for CORRECT! pt#s -- ponieboy, 09/18/2002
Looking for the CORRECT pt#s for the exhust manifold(S) AND head(S) right and left
on a 67gt 390.
Please and thankyou.
|
| | What month was the car made? -- Dave Shoe, 09/18/2002
The heads can be C6AE-R, C6AE-U, or C7AE-A.
At least one exhaust manifold will be a C7 casting. They will not both have C6 casting numbers.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: What month was the car made? -- ponieboy, 09/18/2002
Sorry, Nov. 4th, 66 |
| | | | Tough call. -- Dave Shoe, 09/18/2002
I suspect it could be any of the aforementioned castings. Later in the year the C6AE-U would have become less common.
Note: I'm not a judge and I don't know what they look for. Based on my understanding of trends I've seen with the FE, the three part numbers mentioned are likely candidates. If it's a California car, it also needs Thermactor bosses drilled.
Note that one side of the 1966 Fairlane 390 exhaust manifolds did not fit the '67 Mustang, so at least the one manifold was redesigned with a bolt boss relocated. Fairlanes and Mustangs both got this updated manifold in 1967. I suspect the driver's side is the one which needed changing, but am not certain.
JMO,
Shoe. |
| | | | | RE: Tough call. -- ponieboy, 09/19/2002
I think I'm clear on the head pt #s, either
C6AE-R,C6AE-U, OR C7AE-A.
The motor guy has a number of heads and exhaust manifolds on his shelves, What are the pt #s of the manifolds?, that will bolt up to the aforementioned heads. For example, will
C6OE 9431A, DATE CODE6C21
and
C6OE 9430A, DATE CODE 6D14 be harmonius?
I saw a set up on a 68 s code stang last night where the owner claims I need a 1-1/2 long spacer on the rt. side to able to bolt up my pipes. |
| | | | | | Spacer - not. -- Royce Peterson, 09/19/2002
A 1967 390GT engine should have an exhaust recirculation valve on the right manifold. The valve closes during cold start operation forcing all the right side exhaust through the intake manifold crossover until the engine warms up.
That part was replaced by a spacer for 1968 production. The spacer is undersized from the manifold. The resulting restriction forces hot air through the intake all the time. It also reduced warranty claims caused by sticking valves and rattling noises when the valves were open.
Another possible head casting number for 67 390GT is C7AE-L.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | | | RE: Spacer - not. -- ponieboy, 09/19/2002
O.K. Now i've 4 head pt#s that will work, and I need a 68 spacer or a 67 valve. Where can I find a list of gt manifolds #s (67 or 8), that will bolt up to those heads?, and a source for the "spacer"? |
| | | | | | | | Use an "S" type intake with a small t'stat hole. -- Dave Shoe, 09/19/2002
An intake with an "S" cast onto the #1 runner and a small thermostat hole is functionally what you want. You'll need to verify the date code works and also that the car presently has a thermostat housing which fits a small t-stat.
Just my understanding - not necessarily concours correct info.
Shoe. |
| | | | | | | | RE: Spacer - not. -- Royce Peterson, 09/19/2002
www.perogie.com
|
|