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| Birth of the "390 is a dog" blues? -- Mr F, 12/13/2003
Sure
- we've all heard that old canard about how 390s are "boat anchors". Some
of you may recall this recent thread in which real-world examples were
discussed in an attempt to separate fact from fiction.
Personally, I'd always assumed that this
nonsense was a product of the early '70s, when FEs were
sometimes considered products of 'dated' technologies. Turns out I had no
idea how far back it goes; that is, I didn't until yesterday when I
was leafing through a stack of old speed mags.
Here's an excerpt from the December 1967 issue
of Popular Hot Rodding. They start off by discussing the results of
recent mods done to their (at the time) latest project car, a 1967 Mustang
390GT.
Mr
F |
|
| The "jiggle valve" -- Glenn, 12/13/2003
Thats what its called in the FE book I'm looking at. Do I take it out and plug it and drill a restriction for timing chain oiling or leave it alone? The jiggle valve is shown to be at the front of the block in the main oil gallery used to provide oil to the timing chain. Just in case you didn't know. I sure didn't. BTW, after my FE melted down due to oil pressure loss I am threading all oil passages and it looks like 1/4 pipe plugs are the way to go. Can someone please say a yea or nay to this idea too? Many thanks to you guys. Glenn |
| | What was the actual oiling system failure? -- Dave Shoe, 12/13/2003
Aside from the oil pan, the productuion FE has a great oiling system. While front-sump oil pans can be problematic in any fast accelerating vehicle if not baffled to contain the oil on launch, stock pans are fine in stock FE engines.
FE oiling problems are most often traced to installing an aftermarket oil pump while not first changing the oil pan to an aftermarket performance pan.
Be careful of some "FE" books, as the author George Reid will steer you wrong around EVERY bend (I just reviewed his book again last night to determine whether I might be being a bit harsh, but I'm not), and most other FE books typically fail to mention the critical need for installation of an aftermarket oil pan prior to ANY oiling mods.
Be forwarned - If your book discusses oiling mods but does not first EMPHASIZE the need to replace the oil pan - then all the oiling info is bogus. A bad and dangerous foumula. MAny an FE has died following the "oiling upgrades" found in popular FE books, because they don't work. They are not properly balanced.
Tell us more about what lead to your meltdown. Specifically, what condition was your initial engine in (stock, modified) and what lead up to the failure. I think we can pinpoint the failure so you don't reassemble the same improper modification into a fresh build.
Topoiler FEs are bad assed race-ready engines if the oiling system isn't improperly modified. The stock oiling system is superbe, despite what some hack writers will tell you.
Shoe. |
| | | Also...Info on jiggle pins and flutter valves. -- Dave Shoe, 12/13/2003
The "jiggle pin" which was changed to a "flutter valve" design in later FEs) is available on many hydraulic liftered FEs, but I don't find that they are needed when combined with modern cam bearings which have a metered squirt slot machined into the cam bearing which applies oil to the timing gear.
I believe their main purpose was to quickly rid the topoil galley of air upon startup, to assure all lifters got oil, instead of air pumped to them at startup.
I've been trying to figure these suckers out for a while now, and have tentatively determined thay are not really needed on FEs, but might be a luxury item to keep a few cold lifters from clattering at start-up.
JMO, Shoe. |
| | | RE: What was the actual oiling system failure? -- Glenn, 12/13/2003
Hi Dave, The failure occoured when an oil gallery plug inside the engine blew out on initial startup. I have pulled all the pressed in plugs and am going to thread them for pipe plugs. Quarter inch pipe plugs OK or do I need to look at somthing more exotic? The only other oil mod I have done is plug the oil feed into the rocker shafts with allen screws and .070 drilled orfices. Many thanks. Glenn |
| | | | Be sure to use sealer on the external plugs. -- Dave Shoe, 12/13/2003
I pulled an old 361FE engine from a long-abandoned 1958 Edsel at the salvageyard a couple years back, and when I removed the tranny, one of the pressed-in oil plugs was popped out of the block and sitting on a rib at the rear of the block. A sad end for a neat car. Pressed-in plugs can work well, but they need to be pressed in properly, sealed, and feel right going in.
Threaded plugs can slightly leak, just like press plugs can, but this is only an issue on the outside surfaces of the engine. I've been surprised at how tenaciously the external pipe plugs can leak if they're not very carefully tapped, sealed, and seated. IT took me a couple builds to finally get them to seal reliably.
I also seem to recall that a shallower than normal type of oil plug usually comes in the engine block plug kits, and they tend to work well in space constrained positions in the block such as at one of the plugs at the front of the lifter passage. It's been awhile since I've installed any oil plugs, so my memory is foggy.
Since your sheet-steel engine plate is likely not drilled at the oil holes, you'll need to drill three clearance holes in it, to prevent it from bending when you tighten the bellhousing against the block.
Be sure you very carefully clean the fresh threads so that no slivers/chips of iron remain to dislodge once the engine is built. Obvious, but an important reminder.
I didn't mention it before, but I've never used a jiggle pin in my builds, and can't say there have been any issues with it's absense. I don't believe they are needed, though I wanted to add that some solid lifter FE blocks apparently used a metered orifice in the front of the block. I'm starting to suspect this was all done in the days before the camshaft retention plate was added to the FE (midyear 1963). While the valves were installed in many later engines, I just don't understand their necessity.
JMO, Shoe. |
| | | | | Thank you Dave <eom> -- Glenn, 12/13/2003
n/m |
| | | | | Isn't there one special short plug needed? -- Chuck Brandt, 12/18/2003
I had my 390 block done at gessford and I remember George warning me to keep track of one of the threaded plugs because it was shorter than the others, I think if you use a full depth one you block something off. Seems like it was the one behind the distributor but I could be wrong. Sound familiar to anyone?
Chuck |
| | | | | | RE: Isn't there one special short plug needed? -- Glenn, 12/18/2003
Hello Chuck, I drilled and tapped my block the other night and paid special attention to the depth I ran the tap down into the block. It doesn't appear that anything was critically close to restricting the passages. The plugs in the valley I used plain old hardware store pipe plugs. On the front and rear of the block I used the high dollar hex plugs to clear the cam sprocket and flywheel like these. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3927&prmenbr=361 Get your plugs first so you know how deep to run the tap into the block. |
| | RE: The "jiggle valve" -- giacamo, 12/15/2003
Glenn i allways tap all the oil gallery plug holes and install allen plugs and i use a dab of indienhead gasket salack on the theads never had a leak.to remove plugs just heat with propane torch out thay come.i toss the jiggel valve if the cam bearings are instaled corect the timeing chane gets plenty of oil..... |
| | | RE: The "jiggle valve" -- Glenn, 12/17/2003
Thanks giacamo, I yanked the j-valve out tonight. Got all the oil gallerys threaded for 1/4" pipe plugs and a trip to the machine shop is next. Always a fun and expensive outing :-) Glenn |
| 66 Fairlane wheels -- T.O., 12/12/2003
What wheel sizes will work on this car? I mean the rim not tire sizes. I have 14x5, but would like to go bigger. My concern is clearence issues in rear fender wells. What sizes do you guys have? Thanks |
| noisy lifters -- Al C, 12/10/2003
Hi Guys, I hope you can help. I have a 63 390 that has had the heads freshened up, new adj rockers and shafts, pushrods, mild cam and lifters at the same time. Ignition is big cap conv w/Ignitor running thru an MSD5 box w/ 8mm wires. How can you tell if you have a bad cam lobe/bad lifter? The lifters aint noisy except once in a while you'll get some ticking ( mainly after a long drive ), but what gets me ( hot or cold ) is when you rev it up a LITTLE there seems to be a slight vibration in the motor. Any Ideas on where I should be looking? Many thanks Guys, great site, I lurk here alot but this is my first post. Al |
| | RE: noisy lifters -- giacamo, 12/10/2003
you problie have a lifter in nead of adjustment after run in not out to bad but enouf to make noise after a run.did your moter vibrate be for you worked on it?what cam did you install?some hot cams will make the engin shutter alittel till it gets to operating rpm.s. |
| | | RE: noisy lifters -- Tim, 12/27/2003
Im Having The Same Problem w/390 Less than 4000Mi,s Motor is Bal/Blueprinted 0.30 Mild cam stock valve train please respond. |
| | | | RE: noisy lifters -- Al C, 12/28/2003
Hi Tim, if you go to my post " Valve Problems " you'll see that I found the problem. Hope you have better luck with yours than I did, looks like time for tear down of the top end. Al |
| | | | | Mmo -- P, 12/31/2003
Hi guys,
I'm the first to acknowledge you can't get a "mechanic in a can", but before I did any kind of a teardown, I'd pour a quart of MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) into the oil sump. This stuff has a "laughable name" but it works. It is a top end lube, and it can take out the varnish or gum that may be causing a sticky lifter. Of course, if a lifter needs adjustment, the stuff in this can won't do that for you.
Regards, P |
| oil level -- ak, 12/10/2003
What is optimal/maximum oil level (compared in oil pan attachment surface) in 428 engine.
I've heard that ford recommended 1 extra quart to put over max level in cobra jet engines? |
| | RE: oil level -- giacamo, 12/10/2003
i dont know about the 428 cj but i know 2 guys in the late 60,s that ran fe,s in stock cars 390,s &352,s who tryed the extra quart stunt and just had a big fomie mess.....but it might work with a windage tray? |
| | | RE: oil level -- ak, 12/11/2003
Ok.
But what is optimal/maximum oil level (compared to oil pan attachment surface) in 428 engine? |
| | | | RE: oil level -- John Saxon, 12/12/2003
Ak the story I've heard with the CJ is that ford used a different dipstick that had the full mark moved up to include the extra quart of oil.If you drain your engine of oil and refill it with 5 quarts(6 if you change the filter)start the engine and run for a few minutes,shut it off and let it sit for a half hour and then pull your dipstick and mark it at the existing oil level you will be set.This only applies if you are running the 390GT-428CJ unibody style pan with a windage tray.Any other style FE pan and your guess is good as mine. |
| | | | | RE: oil level -- ak, 12/15/2003
I'm running with mercury oil pan.
Does anyone have ideas what oil level should be compared to oil pan attachment surface? |
| | | | | | It varies with application. -- Dave Shoe, 12/15/2003
Since the Fe engine is typically tilted back when installed in a car, the oil level is not parallel with the pan rail.
Other issues come into play when determining a stock production engine oil level, and most do not apply to a racing engine build.
The early 428CJ used 5 quarts and had the same oil pan as any other FE car of the 1968-69 era. Midyear 1969 the CJ oilpan baffling was revised to support the fast acceleration rates of CJ equipped cars, but this redesigned pan only offered benefits if an extra quart was added to the pan. A recalibrated dipstick was standard equipment on these later CJ cars, and the windage tray was also added at this time to help constrain the oil supply to where it was needed.
JMO, Shoe. |
| | | | | | | RE: It varies with application. -- ak, 12/19/2003
I would like to know what is correct oil level in a recalibrated cobra jet dipstick?
My car is in street use and I believe that it has standard dipstick. |
| | | | | | | RE: It varies with application. -- JKH, 12/19/2003
Shoe....I've heard various levels on 428 SCJ's.What is the exact amount of oil one should use when haveing the oil cooler used? Joe |
| off-topic engine rebuild help jeep -- dennie, 12/09/2003
Hello, I can't work on my tripower install for my 67 390 caliente until i get my 80 jeep overhaul done. i need help deciding which pushrods to use as i am combining a newer 94 head onto an 80 block. both engines use same lifter and cam but the 94 uses a longer pushrod, The rod lengths are close i have them at home. i can provide more info if needed. thanks guys |
| | RE: off-topic engine rebuild help jeep -- peter, 12/09/2003
u may have to just try them and see which gives u a better pattern on the valve tip/ by using a "sharpie" mark top of valve install rocker components and rotate engine several times- scuff mark should be directly center as possible on valve tip/ if mark is on the far side of push rod; push rod too long if mark is closer to push rod; push rod is too short |
| | | RE: If I understand the design difference... -- Gerry Proctor, 12/10/2003
The later head uses individual stud-mounted rockers in place of the shaft-mounted rocker. If that's the case, close isn't going to be good enough. While the rocker geometry is constant with a shaft system and you can get away with pushrod length differences, it is inconsistent with individual rockers (whether they're paired or not) and you will need the proper length pushrods to accomodate that system. Not that your existing pushrods won't get the engine running but that the rocker geometry could be significantly off and cause excessive loading on the valve guide and lead to premature wear and failure.
Pushrods are cheap. Get the ones specified for your engine/cylinder head combination. |
| | | | Try calling a cam manufac. and ask for a -- dennie, 12/10/2003
Pushrod for a 1994 jeep 242 ho head on a 1980 amc 258 block/cam and see what luck you have. The 2 rod choices are 9.594 for the 80 and 9.641 for the 94. I only glanced at head before giving it to rebuilder , but i believe rocker assy are same i'm sure they are both 1.6-1. i get head and block back friday, i have to plug some water jackets on head and builder wasn't comfy doing it... thanks for the jeep help guys, i like peter's idea, i know i can also buy or make checking pushrods, but believe me i've sunk enough money and time into this car, not to mention the tri-power and all related linkage, tubing, fuel blocks, etc for the merc |
| | | | | RE: Try calling a cam manufac. and ask for a -- peter, 12/10/2003
dennie my suggestion will work/ thats what an engine builder would do with an unkwown head and deck height. the adjustable checking pushrod is cheap enough under 20 bucks, then once u determine proper length you can purchase them thru comp cams for example they offer every size imaginable |
| melling oil pumps -- gene simmons, 12/09/2003
ok, i know about mellings oil pumps M57A & M57AHV; these have 5/16 shafts for the FT motors, but what about M57, M57B, M57HV, M57HP, are all of these interchangeable? the HP should be high pressure- has anyone used that one in a standard 390? how bout the HV one? would appreciate any replies. thanks in advvance |
| bolt in waterjacket -- Carlos, 12/09/2003
Hey guys, i could use some suggestions. A lock washer fell into the water pump hole on the block on the passenger side. I can't get to it. SHOULD I JUST LEAVE IT IN AND FORGET IT, OR WILL IT KILL THE MOTOR IF I DO? Help is much appreciated. |
| | RE: no harm. -- Gerry Proctor, 12/09/2003
It will live its life merrily in the bottom of the water jacket. There's not enough circulation turbulence or pressure to send it anywhere else and even if there was, it would at the very most get caught in the thermostat or the radiator. The washer will never reach a critical mechanical component. |
| | RE: bolt in waterjacket -- giacamo, 12/09/2003
don,t worie to much i,v tor down old running moters that wer getting rebilt that had pices of t stats springs bolts washers extra freez plugs big chunkes of gaskets casting slag all thease things wer not the reason for a rebild...... |
| Mustang GT 390--- can i have headers? -- bullit, 12/08/2003
I've got a 1967 Mustang GT with a 390 4-speed. I'm about to redo the exhaust system and thought i might as well add chrome headers at the same time. Is this possible? its already a very tight fit with the stock manifold. If it is possible, where do i find such headers? |
| | RE: Sure but... -- John, 12/08/2003
Of couse you could, but it is a extremly tight fit. Removed mine this summer. Did take a week to get them out of the car... I would never have headers in my car again.
John |
| | | Thats easy. -- steve, 12/08/2003
Get yourself a set of FPA headers.They fit really good,and are pretty easy to install. |
| | RE: Mustang GT 390--- can i have headers? -- giacamo, 12/08/2003
i have a set of hooker super comps on my cyclone thay are a nightmare i use stock on every thing else i just use headers for racing. |
| | | RE:they help a lot. -- McQ, 12/09/2003
If there's one external power improvement to make to a 390GT it's headers.
Yes, they're a pain to install but I've also heard that the FPA's install easier than the Hookers of old.
The 390 unibody exhaust manifolds are a real bottleneck.
Then you should consider a nice aluminum PI intake or new Edelbrock RPM.
Then some 3.5 - 3.70's out back. Traction Bars? Four speed - I would think so.
Ah the step by step joy of improvements - from small things.....big things may come. |
| | RE: FPA is about your only choice, really. -- Gerry Proctor, 12/09/2003
Since their header flange for the FPA header actually fits the 14-bolt unibody exhaust port location and bolt pattern. The Hookers are very "iffy" on port alignment and flange fit and are prone to blowing gaskets when using the factory unibody heads. The Hookers fit the Edelbrock heads great but, again, not the factory heads.
Be prepared to fully exercise your explitives since the entire process of removing manifolds and fitting headers on a unibody with an FE is difficult at the very least. But the payoff is tremendous horsepower increase. |
| 66 427 mr -- John, 12/07/2003
A friend have a 66 427 MR. Block date 6C2, heads 5K13. He want to put together a 8V setup. What setup would be most correct? Have seen both BC/BD and BJ/BK for 427 8V setups. Confused! What intake?
John
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| | 'Correct' for what, exactly...a specific car line application? [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/07/2003
n/m |
| | | RE: 'Correct' for what, exactly...a specific car line application? [n/m] -- John, 12/08/2003
What setup was used in the Fairline/Galaxie/Shelby Cobra?
John |
| | | | On the Medium Riser for '66 and '67 -- Royce, 12/08/2003
The BC - BD were the only choice.
The BJ - BK were used on 63-65 Low Riser 427's and on the 1967 GT500 Shelby 428.
Royce |
| | | | | RE: On the Medium Riser for '66 and '67 -- John Saxon, 12/09/2003
Royce what were the differences between the BC-BD and BJ-BK carbs I am assuming the BJ-BK low riser carbs were 600 cfm,does that mean the BC-BD carbs were larger or did they just have a different calibration?I know the C5AF-BT-BU carbs were somewhere in the vicinity of 780 cfm. |
| | | | | | BC-BD Carbs are 715CFM each -- Wayne K., 12/09/2003
Where as the BJ-BK carbs are 600CFM each. I opted for the smaller pair for my 416 buildup. |
| | | | | | | CFM Ratings -- Royce, 12/09/2003
It helps to remember the ratings of 600 CFM and 715 CFM are for single 4V use. I think they each flow something less in a dual quad application. In other words a pair of 600 CFM rated carbs might really flow together about 900CFM in an 8V installation because the vacuum is divided into more holes. There is a formula for this, my number is just a guess for example's sake.
Royce |
| | | | | | | | Thanks n/m -- John, 12/09/2003
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