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| Is this 390 truck block? -- Keke, 11/01/2002
I am trying to find out what block I have. Casting numbers are 52D1-F, W1 1F4 and 352 80 or 8C. Would it be 390 truck block? Where i can find more information about this engine? Thank you in advange for your help. Keijo Seppänen from Finland / Skandinavia / Europe |
| | Try again - did you check behind the starter motor? [n/m] -- Mr F, 11/06/2002
n/m |
| | | RE: Try again - did you check behind the starter motor? [n/m] -- Keke, 11/15/2002
I don't find any marks behind starter motor. Previoysly owner said that it's truck block from '71 with solid lifters. I think that only way to id the block is open oil pan and try to check any marks there. |
| | | | Ford did not offer solid lifters in truck blocks. -- Dave Shoe, 11/15/2002
I suspect the lifter passages have been drilled for hydraulic lifters. If, however, the passage crossovers are blocked with the Ford-type plug (i.e.: a factory installed solid cam), it's posible the blocks were commissioned for an industrial application of some sort. There is a teeny chance the displacement could extend outside the 360 thru 391 limits I previously mentioned if this is so.
Hey, that reminds me, I once again dissed the good old 330FT block. If the block turns out to fit a 15/64" feeler gauge betwen the cylinders, it could be a 360/390 FE block, or a 330FT block.
Just my observations. Keep in mind I err with frequency.
Shoe. |
| | | | there are no marks behind a starter motor on an FE -- hawkrod, 11/15/2002
never was and never will be. don't even bother pulling the starter to check as it is a total waste of time. numbers behind the starter is a small block, 365/385 phenomenon. the FE's from 68-71 very often have no identifying numbers on them. even if it had numbers it would not tell you what it is because the numbers ford used in those years could be any size engine. the only way to identify a 68-71 FE engine is to check the crank numbers and the bore size. hawkrod |
| | | | Sorry - meant to type 'alternator'. SBs on the brain, I guess.[n/m] -- Mr F, 11/20/2002
n/m |
| | Can't tell. -- Dave Shoe, 11/15/2002
52 DIF W1 1F4 352 80
It's either a 1961 or 1971 casting. If it's was a 1961 casting it'd have many more very clear markings, so I'm confident the block is a 1971 casting. It likely has 4 bolt holes tapped per motor mount which verifies it's a 1965-later block casting.
Since car engines were no longer being made in 1971 (the Galaxie 390 of 1971 was apparently a low-compression pickup truck engine), you can be sure it came from a truck. Whether it was an FE truck or FT truck, you cannot determine this from the outside casting features, as both FE and FT used the same outer markings.
If you pop out all six core plugs and "feeler gauge" between the cylinders with a 15/64" drill bit shank (sorry, I don't have the metric equivalent handy), id the bit fits between the cylinder jacket at any one spot, it's most likely an FE destined block of 360/390 origins. If it does not fit in even one spot, it's most likely an FT block with 361/391 origins. Both FE and FT bare blocks are quite interchangeable for car applications. There are a couple minor machining differences, that's about it.
Shoe. |
| Autolite Carb Info -- Allan, 10/31/2002
I have an Autolite 4V carburator with an ID tag on it that says D1SF AA and C1A12 on it. Can anyone identify this carb and tell me anything about it? I don't think its the right carb for the 1965 390 I'm building since the linkage doesn't seem to be right. It was on the engine when I got it from the junkyard. |
| | 'D1SF-AA' = 1971 Thunderbird, 429CID. [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/31/2002
n/m |
| | | RE: 'D1SF-AA' = 1971 Thunderbird, 429CID. [n/m] -- Allan, 10/31/2002
Do you know anything about what CFM it is? I'm wondering if it is worth rebuilding for this engine. I think the original carb was a 4100 and I've heard that the later models of the Autolite such as the 4300 didn't perform as well. |
| | Its rated 605cfm and I think 4300s work just fine. :-) [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/31/2002
n/m |
| 352 heads -- jesse, 10/30/2002
what are the best heads for a 352 ? part #? |
| | It depends on your application. -- Dave Shoe, 10/30/2002
There are no bad FE heads. I'd probably recommend C8AE-H heads first, as they keep that cherished 1960s casting number, and they've got the efficiently designed "velocity" runner, and a small chamber to bump compression maybe a tenth or three over stock.. D2TE-AA heads would be a little easier to find, and are approximately identical.
Tell us more about your car and engine, and your goals for it.
Shoe. |
| 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Paul Garvin, 10/30/2002
I finally got around to begin seriously working on the FE I am building for my 69 XR7 Convertible. The motor is a D4TE 390 truck motor that was in the F250 that I recently got rid of. I pulled the pistons/rods and numbered them as I went so that the rods would go back in the same bores. I noticed when I pulled the pistons out the only markings on the pistons were the number 410 next to the piston pin holes. I cannot find any part number on the crankshaft although it is still in the block. I have done a number of forum searches on 410 and truck 390's and I am getting the impression that the pistons may be the same. However, the piston seems to sit pretty high in the bore. Would a 390 truck piston be low in the bore to reduce compression? Is it possible that at some point this motor was rebuilt and 410 pistons were used. I bought the truck from my brother-in-law and he said it had recently been rebuilt. I put about 30K miles on before pulling the motor. The pistons look to be in very good shape with no wear or scuffing. And the cylinders are in very good shape as well with little or no ridge, and no scratches. I have a 1UB CJ crankshaft that I was planning to use to build a 390 stroked to somewhere between 410 and 428. The engine had good compression before teardown, but I thought I would have to replace the pistons if I went with the 1UB crank. Is it possible to use these pistons? Is it a good idea to reuse them? Is there a wear limit that I can measure with a micrometer to help me make the determination. If all the parts are in good shape and measure OK with a mic, can I simply have the block honed, the rotating assembly balanced, and just replace the rings and bearings? That would make this whole project a lot simpler and would move my time table way up. Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for all your help. Paul G. |
| | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Travis Miller, 10/30/2002
In the early to mid '70's Ford used 410 pistons in 390 truck engines to lower the compression. 410 engines have a 390 bore and a 428 stroke. If you want a 410 cubic engine, use your 1UB crank along with the 410 pistons and rods. You will need to use a 428 balancer and flywheel. |
| | | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Paul G., 10/30/2002
Travis, I have been told before that I could use the harmonic balancer that is on the motor, that there is really no difference between a 410/428 balancer and the D5 balancer that I have. I already have a 410/428 flywheel so that is not an issue.
Do you know what the bore wear limit is that the cylinders would have before not being able to use the current piston. I had planned on boring the motor, and buying new pistons because I did not realize I could use the existing ones with 1UB crank. But I would be perfectly happy if I can just relpace the rings bearings and gaskets and put it all together. Thanks, Paul |
| | | | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Travis Miller, 10/30/2002
Check with a machine shop on bore limits. |
| | | | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- salid, 10/30/2002
your D4TE block may be a candidate for over bore to 4.13 (428 ci). Search for Shoe's drill bit test to determine if it is worth sonic testing. That block should have the extra rib on the main webs too. Since you already have the 428 crank, it may be an easy task to get a 428 out of your combination of crank and block. You would have to get pistons. It doesn't take much time to research this option and determine if it is a possiblity and if you don't do it now while you have it all apart, you'll regret it later when you have it all back together and in the car. |
| | | | | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Paul G., 10/31/2002
I have already done both a drill bit test and an allen key test. Based on the results, the block could be a very good candidate for a 428, but that would be as far as it would go, leaving no room for future overbore. The block does have the extra main webs and is in very good condition as it was running very strong in my truck. If I have to bore the block, than I will consider going 428, but if I dont have to I'll just re-assemble with the longer stroke crank. That is why I am interested in the wear limits. I already have the intake carbs heads and other pieces to put the motor together. So this may be an easy decision. Paul G. |
| | | | | | RE: 390 truck vs 410 pistons -- Paul C., 10/31/2002
Get Steve Christ's book, How to Rebuild Ford BIG BLOCK ENGINES. It has your info. |
| Timing 390 engine...any help appreciated -- Bruce Geister, 10/30/2002
My distributor has two vaccum ports. Rear port is connected to intake manifold and front is off of carb port.
1. Is this correct for connections?
2. When timing the engine are both lines removed and plugged or just one? If not both, then which one should be plugged?
3. What is correct idle speed when timing?
Thanks for any and all help. |
| | The connections vary by specific application. -- Royce Peterson, 10/30/2002
Each 390 application had its own schematic for plumbing the dual advance vacuum unit, the carburetor ported vacuum connection, the thermostatically controlled valve and unported manifold vacuum. You need to state what year 390 and whether 2V or 4V and what type of vehicle it is installed in. There will be a specific schematic for each application in the factory service manual for that particular vehicle.
I have a huge amount of original Ford / Mercury literature, if you can be more specific maybe I have what you need.
Royce Peterson |
| | | RE: The connections vary by specific application. -- Bruce Geister, 10/30/2002
Thanks for the reponse Royce. The car is a 64 Galaxie but the tag on the engine says it is a 68 390. It is a 4V now but don't know if it is original. There is no thermostaically controled valve at this time. Currently it is piped ported carb to rear port and manifold vaccum to front port and it seems to be ok like that. I guess my main concern is how to time it. Bruce |
| | | | Here's what I would do: -- Royce Peterson, 10/31/2002
Get a single vacuum advance unit made by Accel, they are available from Summit (1-800-230-3030). The Accel unit is adjustable and costs around $35.00.
Time the engine to have around 10 degrees advance at 600 RPM with all vacuum connections plugged. With everything hooked up something like 42 - 48 degrees total works well. The vacuum advance portion should be about 10 degrees. Remember, the vacuum advance goes away at WOT under load so actual loaded timing is around 34 - 38 degrees ideally. The ability of the vacuum can to go to the 42-48 degree range at part throttle gives significant fuel economy improvement and better drivability than a straight mechanical advance distributor. It also allows for a much cooler running engine.
Search the index for vacuum advance and see numerous other posts on this subject.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | Vacum Advance Unit helps to run cooler -- Martin, 10/31/2002
How significant for engine temperature is the difference between having a vacum advance unit or not ? My commute home takes me from 0 - 1500 feet elevation in 10 minutes and running hot is always an issue. 69 Cougar with 390IP with MSD ignition and 2.75 rear-end. |
| | | | | | Above is a request for more info - Sorry -- Martin, 10/31/2002
Cooling issue |
| | | | | | It was very significant for me. -- Royce Peterson, 10/31/2002
I initially used a dual point distributor in my 427 stroker motor (448CI) in my 68 Cougar GTE. At the time I was living in Dallas, TX where summer temps are in the 100's. The car would run well past halfway up the heat range, a digital thermometer showed 220 F.It would boil over if sitting at a light too long. I tried all sorts of tricks including a new 4 core radiator, clutch fan, flex fan, Flow Cooler water pump, additional electric fan and adding watter wetter to the coolant. None of that stuff made any difference except to my bank balance.
Installed the single point vacuum distributor with a Pertronix conversion. Now it can sit in traffic at 100 F with no problems, runs at 1/4 position on the guage. It also starts better hot and is more responsive. Gas mileage is nothing to write home about though.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | | | Also.... -- Royce Peterson, 10/31/2002
Should note that it took some playing around to make it work so well, I also used a Mr. Gasket advance spring kit and am using a factory Autolite single vacuum advance can. They are adjustable by adding and subtracting washers from the unit, not as nice as the Accel unit.
All the fiddling with ignition stuff was after getting the 8V Medium Riser intake and carbs to work right. Much credit must go to Joe Bunetic for his advice and service of building the carbs from junk cores I sent to him.
Royce Peterson |
| | | | | RE: Here's what I would do: -- Bruce Geister, 11/01/2002
Thanks for the info. I will give it a try. |
| Engine balancing and ring reuse -- Bryan Z, 10/29/2002
Hi all. Since a rebuild on my 390 (appr 8000 miles) I have been experiencing a vibration which has been getting worse. When I put the engine together I did not have the rotating assembly balanced. Within the next couple weeks (before something gives way), I am going to tear the engine down and have the rotating assembly balanced along with the flywheel and pressure plate. My question is depending on what I find upon teardown and if the cylinder walls still display good crosshatch, would it be ok to reuse the same rings, keeping in mind they will be installed in their respective bores. I will also have the oil mods done and install ARP rod bolts. Here is a breakdown of whats in the engine now. Block--C7ME bored .030 over Pistons--cast 10:1 Heads--C6AE-R fresh with comp valve job thermactor hump removed Intake--Edelbrock Performer Cam--Edelbrock EDL-2106 194 deg @.050 Carb--Edelbrock 600 cfm exhaust--stock logs and dual pipes through unknown mufflers Transmission--4 spd toploader Pressure Plate--Ram 2600# Rear--9" 3.50 trac-loc The engine runs good other than the vibration. Before installing the fresh C6-R heads I could only get about 4300 rpm out of a set of C8-H heads. At the track last year my best time was a 15.4 @90 mph in a 65 galaxie conv. With the C6 heads I can get into the 5300 rpm range but havent had it to the track yet. Does anything in my setup look mismatched or could it just be that something in the rotating assembly is a bit whacked. Thank You Bryan |
| | You definetly have a problem..... -- kevin, 10/30/2002
if it is getting worse. First, I would investigate the pilotbushing in the back of the crank. Second, I would inspect the trans for a bad front bearing. If these are both OK, (although I greatly suspect one or the other) then pull the engine if you feel you need to. First, do a compression test, and if possible, a leakdown test. The rings should be checked for gap first, and then for side wear (see my reply to post above). Get a jewelers eye loupe. Look at the face of the rings. The top, if its moly, will be easy to diagnose if there are worn areas. Then, if that checks OK, I would get a fish sale and check the tension. The specs are in the service manual. Crosshatch really means nothing. |
| | | RE: Just my 2 bits -- Mark Ernst, 10/30/2002
Can't tell you how many times I thought a serious problem existed in my motor or trans that turned out to be front or rear U-joints/yoke problems... |
| | | | Problem.... -- John, 10/30/2002
I think a lot of things should be checked before you tear the engine down. As Mark says, a lot of driveline problems can seem like engine vibration. Tire imbalance also comes to mind. So does an engine vacumn leak and ignition problems. But assuming something is coming loose inside and you want an answer to your question about re-using rings. I wouldn't. Bearings, sure (though with all the effort to tear the engine down....new bearings are a cheap help), but not rings. De-glaze the cylinders with a ball-hone or a straight 3-stone hone and fit new rings. Why? Because the ring lands on the pistons should be scrupuously clean, and if you put the piston back in, then you are asking for trouble should some carbon have gotten in there during dissasembly. Don't like that reason?...well then...do it because nobody is sure and better safe than sorry. The only type of engine I would re-use rings in is a lawn-mower engine...a good old Briggs and Stratton. The smoke in the exhaust helps keep the mosquitoes away. |
| | | | | Try this -- Travis Miller, 10/30/2002
I tore a rebuilt engine down once with 1000 miles on it because of a vibration. Found nothing. Problem was solved by an old time mechanic who was a friend. He told me to look for a collapsed transmission mount. Sure enough the rubber part of the old (reused) trans mount had become oil soaked and collapsed allowing it to be metal to metal sending vibrations throughout the car that increased as RPM went up. |
| | | | | | Engine vibration and ring reuse -- Bryan Z, 10/30/2002
Thank you guys for responding. As far as the drive train goes, I had the drive shaft checked and balance a couple times by a reputable shop. Universals were installed new when the drive shaft was done. I,ve changed 3rd members several times, mostly so I could get to the one I wanted(3:50 trac-loc). Last year I changed the transmission to the one that would be proper for that car. This year I installed a new pilot bearing, clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing. I checked the trans mount the last time I pulled the tranny. When you rev the engine with the tranny out of gear, you can feel there is a positive vibration which is its worse at about 2400 rpm. The vibration has been there before and after all the changes I have made to the driveline and also engine component upgrades. Heads were changed from the C8-H to the fresh C6-R acouple of months ago. Vibration still there, but I gained about another 1000 rpm(could have been because of valve float). When I had the intake off, I inspected the cam and lifters, nothing was worn or wiped. Distributor was replaced about 9 months ago from a Mallory dual point to a Mallory Unilite, vibration still there. As far as the rings go, it didn't take much to change my thoughts on trying to use the old ones. Since I did this rebuild I have found this site and also the FE Forum. I have learned alot about the fascinating FE from a lot of knowledgeable people. So now this time I can do some of the mods that should have been done the first time. As far as the mosquitoes go, maybe I should install the old rings, we could use a lot less mosquitoes around here. Thanks Again Bryan |
| | | | | | | RE: Engine vibration and ring reuse -- rick, 11/06/2002
i had a similar prob. with my xr7 gt - vibrated in neutral -started around 2000 rpm - and got worse as rpm's increased - machinist insisted it was the internal components - i went with the "supposed" 0 balance flywheel first - well guess what - they took close to 50 grams of steel off the flywheel - balanced the the centerforce pres. plate - put everything back together - guess what - no more vibration - i'd recommend trying this first - hell of a lot easier and cheaper than a total teardown. good luck... |
| How to wire charging system after ignition convers -- Mark Ernst, 10/29/2002
I havge recently converted my dual point ignition to an MSD6A and Malory Unilite distributor. I have my 67 390 set up and running in my custom running engine stand. My question is how to wire my alternator and or regulator to it? My alternator is a replacement for the 67 mercury cougar ariginal. It has the FIELD, BAT, STA, and GND posts. My Regulator has 4 posts, 1,2,3, F All replies are greatly appreciated!
67 Cougar GT XR7 3-2V / 8-V 12:02 --1/4 |
| What's it worth ? -- Greg, 10/28/2002
I am looking at purchasing a '64 Galaxie lightweight.The car is all original in MINT shape.It has less than 900 original miles with the original paint,interior,427 and dual fours.Still has rubber matting,battery in trunk etc.Also,this car has a bit of racing history.The owner has documentation confirming that this car held the land speed record back in the 70's for its class.Decals from racing still on car.Any idea what this car is worth??Thanks in advance. |
| | Tough call, but assuming exc. cond. I'd say $45-55K. [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/28/2002
n/m |
| | RE: we need pics! -- Mike McQuesten, 10/28/2002
Please Greg, we need some fine digital pics of this rare piece of '60s history. |
| | RE: What's it worth ? -- Paul C., 10/28/2002
I read in a car auction magazine about a year ago, a 64 with a 427 and 6,000 miles, sold for $36,000. This was a stock car, not a race car. |
| | | RE: What's it worth ? -- Tim B, 10/29/2002
From NADA
Model: 2 DOOR FASTBACK LIGHTWEIGHT Weight: N/A Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price: N/A Low Retail: $25,200 Average Retail: $49,400 High Retail: $80,700
Weren't Fairlane Thunderbolts over $100K a few years ago? I'd like to see the pics too!
Tim B |
| | | | | This must be Mike Schmitt's car..... -- kevin, 10/30/2002
the NHRA AA/SA winner, and would be white. As far as the LSR goes, I never heard that, and it seems strange. If not his, then who's would it be, and what organization was it running under? |
| | | | | RE: What's it worth ? -- Greg, 10/30/2002
Hi.It is not Mike's car.The car set the 1/8 and 1/4 mile record in the 70's under IRHA. I am trying to figure out how to put pic on. |
| | | | | | RE: thanks, -- Mike McQuesten, 10/30/2002
Thanks Greg for taking the time to post a pic of this extremely rare car. I would have agreed with kevin about this car being Schmitt's car because I don't think there were but a couple of '64 lightweights built. That's why the documentation on this car is very important. As most know Ford was spending a large chunk of their drag racing promo budget on the Thunderbolt. I don't know the facts but do know that the '63 lightweight program was not as competitive as hoped. The unibody Mopars still had a big weight advantage over the reduced bulk Galaxies. Hence the Thunderbolt '64 Fairlane of which there were a couple of '63 "prototypes" built. By '64 I don't think Ford was supporting the lightweight Big Ford. So you've found one of very very few I think. The '63 Lightweights are big $ as are the '64 T-bolts. A '64 Lightweight.....whoa. |
| | | | | | | 1964 Lightweight Galaxies -- Travis Miller, 10/30/2002
Here is info on the 1964 lightweight Galaxies.
There were only 50 lightweight Galaxies built in 1964. Of the 50 built, 25 were automatics and 25 were 4-speeds. They were all built in the Atlanta plant. The only lightweight body part was the fiberglass bubble hood to clear the Hi-Riser engine's 2x4 carburetor set-up. The cars were heater and sound deadner delete. They had lightweight Bostrum bucket seats with thin rubber floor mats.
The 1964 lightweight Galaxies were built in case the 427 Thunderbolt Fairlane was not declared legal for Super Stock class by NHRA. They wound up running AA/S and AA/SA in 1964/65. The most famous 1964 lightweight Galaxie is the Desert Motors car driven to the NHRA Stock World Championship in 1965 by Mike Schmidt. That car has been restored and is relettered to its original racing appearance. |
| | | | | | | | RE: 1964 Lightweight Galaxies -- Greg, 10/30/2002
Travis,this car is exactly as you describe the 64 lightweights as being.Red interior is all original with original rubber floor mats and has all the original decals on the car when it set the records.The decal for the class is A/S .Has IHRA RECORD HOLDER and sponsored by BYERLY FORD on rear 1/4 panel.This car is original and does not need to be restored showing only 853 original miles.Does anyone have idea what this car may be worth??Thanks. |
| | | | | | | | RE: Rare! -- MikeMcQ, 10/30/2002
Great information Travis. Obviously the '64 Galaxie Lightweight is rarer than the '64 Fairlane Thunderbolt. The number of which always seems to be in question, i.e., 111? 113? or whatever. But your specific facts of 25 4 speed/25 automatics(were they Lincoln cruisos like the few automatic T-bolts?) would indicate to Greg the high value of such a find.
Again I think it's very tough to advise on value. It really comes down to whatever the market will pay. If this particular '64 Galaxie that Greg has found is genuine and he wants it, he should buy it! I'm a free spender of other's money. You'd think I was an investment counselor receiving big commissions for such valuable advice. Nah.
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| | | | | | | | | 100 T-Bolts -- Travis Miller, 10/30/2002
The number of '64 427 Thunderbolt Fairlanes built was 100 units. 59 were automatics and 41 were 4-speeds. The confusion of how many T-Bolts were actually built lies in the fact that 11 were built in the initial run. These 11 cars were painted Vintage Burgundy and given to members of the Ford Drag Team. The rest of the 89 T-Bolts built later in two additional runs were painted Wimbledon White. All 100 had beige interiors.
The 1964 lightweight Galaxies and T-Bolts using automatics had modified Lincoln transmissions. Most were converted over to 4-speeds in a short time after they hit the dragstrip. |
| | | | | Any photos that need editing, send 'em here... -- Mr F, 10/30/2002
sales2 @ fomoco.com |
| | More photos... (WAS: RE: What's it worth?) -- Greg, 10/31/2002
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| | More photos, Pt. II.... (WAS: RE:What's it worth ?) -- Greg, 10/31/2002
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| | More photos, Pt. III.... (WAS: RE:What's it worth ?) -- Greg, 10/31/2002
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| | More photos, Pt. IV.... (WAS: RE:What's it worth ?) -- Greg, 10/31/2002
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| | | Thanks Mr. F -- Greg, 10/31/2002
Thanks Mr.F for editing the pics for me and giving others a chance to see this car......Greg. |
| | | | Sure - no biggie. Be sure to keep us posted, Ok? :-) [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/31/2002
n/m |
| | | | | RE: Sure - no biggie. Be sure to keep us posted, Ok? :-) [n/m] -- Greg, 11/06/2002
Just to let you know that I passed on the 64 Galaxie lightweight.Beautiful car but to rich for my blood.Thanks for everyone's help. |
| | | | lightweight pricing -- Mike Braun, 11/01/2002
I friend in San Francisco bought a very nice restored, unmodified '64 4 spd lightweight ( I believe it was Dick Brannan's car) last year from the Reggie Jackson collection. The car is not a 100 point correct resto (close, though) but it has the very rare original fiberglass air ducts to the air bonnet. He paid $46,000 for it --Mike |
| Gt500kr -- J Legacy, 10/28/2002
does anyone know what the correct "Air Cleaner Top" is for a 68 1/2 GT500KR? |
| Machine shop checklist? (long) -- Chris, 10/28/2002
I've removed and disassembled my '68 390 x-code engine from my Mustang. I'm prepared to take the necessary items to the machine shop so that they can do what they do. My problem is that I don't know exactly what I should have them do. I've rebuilt a 390 and a 302 before, but that was when I was younger and my father dealt with the machine shop. I want to do most of the reassembly, but will defer to the machine shop for what I can't do in my simple, amateur home garage. I don't want to go to the machine shop and be taken advantage of, so, my question is what do I have them do? What engine parts should I take to them besides the block and heads? I'm going to replace the cam, lifters and probably the pushrods. Should I take them the pistons (with connecting rods) in case I don't need to have the block bored? What do I ask them to check? What about hardened valve seats? The engine will see daily drive use with almost no drag racing. Do I need hardened valve seats for all of the valves, or just the exhaust valves?
I apologize for the length of this email. Thanks for any help. |
| | RE: Machine shop checklist? (long) -- Mark Ernst, 10/29/2002
Something you should know...! A recent experience of mine at my local machine shop otherwise self proclaimed as "Performance Machine Shop" was such a disaster and matches your post right on the nose so you should beware! I had checked around town and was refered to this guy by other shops. i brought my 390 block, pistons,(disassembled) and all components in for evaluation. I had one cylinder with coolant damage and expected a possible bore job. I turned in 2 sets of heads, 1 set right out of another shop, and told the owner to please evaluate it all. After paying him $2500 for everything including 2 sets of springs and retainers, 1 exh valve, full bore job and one sleeve installed, fitment of my ARP rod bolts, paying for a Mag of the components, he returned to me 3 months later my block with 3 cracks in it. 3 out of 4 of the top four corner head bolt holes had obvious cracks thru to the water jacket. See pics attached. Moral of my story is go to a recomended machine shop that Dave Shoe or another very qualified person as he is suggests in your area. Make sure you see other FORD FE stuff around and don't let the guy know how much you don't know! If you'd like to contact me for the details of my experience you can at cameron1961@cs.com |
| | | Winston Salem, NC recommendation? -- Chris, 10/29/2002
Thanks for the info Mark. Sorry to hear about your disaster and that's just the thing I want to avoid.
So, taking a shot in the dark here, can anyone recommend a quality machine shop in the Winston-Salem, North Carolina area? |
| | | | OK Chris........ -- kevin, 10/30/2002
you want long?, try searching for the answers that have been given already on this site before. I gave a detailed explanation on how to check all components, the work that is needed, many home "how to's", and procedures to break in a new engine a year or more ago. I have not really used the search feature, so am not sure if its still on here, maybe the host can help. If you have not yet disassembled the engine. there are signs to look for. First, did you have a problem? A compression test would have given you any clue. Looking for trouble spots always helps if you have someone experianced in rebuilding, and especially machining engines available to you. You might be able to get a local racer to help, as they are forced into this quite often. I would suggest going to a stock car track, and find a racer who is near the top of his class. A case of beer, or some other "bribe" would help. Check the core plug holes for cracks. This is a common spot, and they can be repaired, (as can all cracks). Check the side clearance on the rods before taking it apart, as well as the end play in the crank. Measure how much ring ridge there is, and how far down it goes. Check the deck surface for discoloring from combustion or coolant leaks. Does the crank spin freely just turning it by hand?, it should before and after assembly. Make sure that the main caps are a tight fit to the block registers. You should not be able to pull them off without a fight, and have to "snap" them back on with your fist. Try and twist the rods and push them back and forth parallel to the pin on the pistons to see how much play there is. This needs to be checked on a rod fixture anyway, but will give you an idea if one is particularly bad. Insert a feeler gauge below the top ring while holding the ring in as if it were compressed in the cylinder. If you can get a .003-4 in there, its shot. this is as critical as the wall finish for sealing. Mic the ring to make sure it is not too worn to give an accurate reading, (new ones are .078 thick, and as they wear, they wear on the top side and wear off the phosphate coating, and form a ridge). Put a second ring in there, if the top one is worn. The tops of the valve stem tips should all be the same height, if not, then there is a seat wear issue, or a valve that has stretched (not very likely unless you leaned out the engine while running hard). There is lots more, but I could write a book, and thats been done too many times. The shop equipment varies, as do the people and their procedures. I've had new state of the art equipment, and its nice, however the old stuff can get the job done just fine, but is slower, its all up to the machinist, and if he cares about you, and himslf, and reputation. A pressure tester, and a wet mag (a booth with a black light, and a pump with fluid) are the kinds of serious pieces to look for. A Sunnen CV 616, (best) or a CK 10 are what the better shops have if you need to have it bored. A line hone is also a very good idea for any engine. The rod machine of choice is a Sunnen "Powerstroker". Be prepard to replace all of the valve train components, like rockers, shafts, and pushrods. Get a windage tray and heavy duty oil pump drive shaft no matter what. All engines wear out, not in. It just depends on who does it, and how, along with proper assembly and maintenance. I know people that cant ever seem to get a 100,000 miles out of anything, as well as some that get 3-4 times that. The same applied to drivers of fleet trucks I maintained. I also knew plenty of hi-dollar racers that would lose their engine before getting off the trailor, never failed to amaze/amuse me. Good luck, and go slowly upon assembly. Cleanliness is better than godliness, as you cant take the engines name in vain when something goes wrong. |
| | | | RE: Winston Salem, NC recommendation? -- Rollie H., 10/30/2002
I live near there and have used Automotive Machine Shop off of Liberty street. They do good work, but I have been surprised at their prices compared to other shops. They are not Ford people. They are more geared toward GM, Mopar and such. So, don't ask them for advice on what a Ford engine needs for better perfomance or remedies for typical block or head problems. I have also used Golden Shamrock off of Old Salsbury road. They are a performance shop and may be slow to get to your stuff since they cater to the racers. They seem to know the details on just about any engine. There is another shop near Pilot Mountain, but I haven't used them myself. I have friends that have and are pleased with the work they have done for them as well as the prices. I will have to get a name for you on this one. Hope this helps. |
| | Thanks everyone. nfm -- Chris, 11/01/2002
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