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 |  max overbore on 428 PI? -- john, 01/13/2002
I recently got a 428PI motor with a 67 GT500 project car. it's not the original one for the car, but it's got C6ME on it and I was told it is correct for the car. It was rebuilt many years ago, and was bored .030 over according to the pistons having .030 stamped on the tops. I need to tear it down to freshen it up, and there is a deep score in one of the cyliders (how it got there on a rebuilt engine, I have no idea). My question is how far can I bore this block, .040 or .060? Or since it's kind of an important car, should I sleeve the one cylinder?
John |
|  | RE: max overbore on 428 PI? -- Mike, 01/13/2002
if the scores are only on 1 cylinder i would just sleeve that cylinder. as to how they got there, on one of my motor had scoring on several cylinders toward the bottom directly across from each side of the cylinder was from excessive piston to bore clearance. i would check your bore to piston spec clearance for each cylinder this will get you started. |
 | Does anyone know the story behind KR CJs? -- Rich Kutzner, 01/13/2002
I have a 68 ShelbyKR, all the part numbers on the engine are correct and dated within days of the cars Ford build date. Heads are C8OE-N,Exhausts are C8OE-B and D, the intake is C8OE-9425-C. The block, though has NO casting number (trust me, it's out being detailed). The SAAC World Resgistry, in Appendix 11, shows 'none' for casting number and I consider that sufficient documentation to back this up. I hope to someday open her up and see the "428" in the water jacket and the extra main webbing. Also it says the crank will have IUB on the #7 couterwieght. Anyways, until then, does anyone know the story behind why the KR engines had no casting number? |
|  | RE: Does anyone know the story behind KR CJs? -- hawkrod, 01/13/2002
very few of the original CJ's had casting numbers on the blocks. some of the earliest did have C7ME numbers but they seem to be really early and may actually be left over PI blocks. i have seen one KR with a serial numbered engine with the C7ME block that was cast in january but the assembly date is march and the heads were cast in february and march but all of the may june cars i have seen and all of the 69 and 70 CJ's have no numbers. just a ford idiosyncracy i guess. hawkrod |
| |  | RE: Does anyone know the story behind KR CJs? -- Rich Kutzner, 01/13/2002
Thanks, all my parts are dated between 18-22 May 68. |
| | | RE: Does anyone know the story behind KR CJs? -- Mike, 01/13/2002
your Shelby sounds very orginal, i have found on these cars behind the speedo and tach assembly at the top of the dash behind the wiring you will find a factory build sheet. this will list your cars vin#, options, production dates and part #'s. be very careful when removing this its easliy torn and the gauge assembly must be removed. another point of interest in the engine compartment on the passenger side between the shock tower and firewall on the side panel half way down 2 holes will be punced in the metal. i have been trying to find out why these were made, only Gt-500Kr's have them. Your crankshaft i believe should be a 1U, i am told the 1UB was not availble to 1969. |
| | | | Got a photo of those eng. bay holes, Mike? [n/m] -- Mr F, 01/13/2002
n/m |
| | | | | RE: i may be able to get one -- Mike, 01/13/2002
i dont think it would turn out very well with the motor installed very dark. you can also see them from the wheel well area with the tire removed. |
| | | | | | 68 CJ exhaust manifolds -- Chris Teeling, 01/13/2002
You may want to check those exhaust manifold numbers again. 1968 CJ's came with C8OE-9431-A driver's side manifold and C8OE-9430-B on the passenger side. The -D passenger side manifold is for a 1970 CJ. Ford deleted the spacer in 1970 so the -D manifold was machined to accept the "doughnut" manifold to exhaust flange seal. The 1968 -B manifold lacks the reinforcing ribs between the port found on the later -C and -D manifolds.
By the way, unless you are talking about the two holes used to mount the idler arm to the front sub frame, my 1968 1/2 428 CJ GT does not have them. |
| | | | | | | RE: two holes appear at one point.. -- Mike, 01/14/2002
to have something mounted to them, they are above the frame in the side panel, about midpoint closer to the fire wall than the shock tower, 2 holes side by side. they are in May 1992 issue of Fabulous Mustangs article on the Shelby GT-500Kr's id guide. i will try and get a picture of this article on. Being a mid year production these were improved cars over earlier versions with special reinforcement metal thru out the front and rear subframes. |
| | | | | | | | RE: two holes appear at one point.. -- Rich Kutzner, 01/14/2002
Hey guys, since my engine is out I can take a picture of them and send them to you once that roll is developed. They are slightly below my A/C vacuum canister and slightly forward. They don't look very round, either, do yours?
As far as my exhaust manifolds, I'm 'fairly' sure those were the letters though they were very difficult to read. The passenger side one was cracked in the same spot I've seen many at shows cracked. Anyways, they're in the attic with the original A/C stuff and that pig of an intake, I'll check some other day, unless someone really wants to know! In the meantime, I'll be daily driving my car any day the sun will shine! Enjoy your cars, no matter what you do with them! |
| | | | | | | RE: 68 CJ exhaust manifolds -- Rich Kutzner, 01/14/2002
I forgot (see my other response!), but it's interesting that the SAAC Registry lists the right as C8OE-9431-B for the right and 9432-B for the left. Guess I'll have to check but to tell you the truth, one thing I've learned is nothing is for sure when it comes to those Ford assembly lines.......my 390 GT I used to have was built within a week of this car at the same plant and though most parts matched, there were a couple 67 leftover parts tossed on the engine. A concours judge told me there had been a strike around the May-June timeframe and parts were used from anywhere they could be found. Anyways, the Ford mystery goes on! |
| | | | | | | Chris - YOU WERE RIGHT ! -- Rich Kutzner, 01/14/2002
I'm sorry for the confusion, it seems my numbers were ones I had written down when the engine was in the car. I decided to jump in the attic (brrr...) to reconfirm and my numbers were exactly as Chris said, couldn't really read the '-94' part of either number on either side from all the corrosion. Of course that still makes you wonder why the difference in the SAAC which reads 31(R) and 32(L) for 68 and 30(R) and 31(L) for 69. Isn't that kind of backwards?
And while I was in the attic, I figured out the stlry behind those 2 holes......I remember hearing that ol' Carroll needed to shed some weight to keep those 'luxury' KRs competitive with the lightweight 68 1/2's.........OK....OK.....it was cold in the attic ! |
| | | | | | | | Could they be from... -- kevin, 01/15/2002
the tilt away wheel vac lines and booster canister? It seems to me that I had trouble with something like that on a KR that I took that tilt away out of, but its been damn near 30 years. |
| | | | | | | | | On my car, that canister is forward of the well... -- Rich Kutzner, 01/15/2002
My lines and the pictures in my vacuum manual show that canister forward of the wheel well right under the battery tray. Did that ring any bells? Remember, there's a 50 cent piece sized hole between the tow bolt holes for those vacuum canisters. The A/C canister is above and behing these two punched out holes.
I'm sticking with my Carroll theory ! |
| | | | | | | | | | RE: On my car, that canister is forward of the well... -- Mike, 01/17/2002
yes this is correct place for the vacuum canistor for the tilt steering column on my non ac car, as for the two holes it looks like maybe a solenoid of sometype could of been mounted there or maybe a battery cut off of switch. This is just a guess seeing how they are close to the starter motor. |
| | | | | | | | | | | RE: we may never know -- Rich Kutzner, 01/17/2002
I really don't think so. The holes are far from round, large enough to mount something bigger than that area would hold, and one is higher than the other, they're not even level tothe ground. That's my opinion, of course ! |
| jason -- jason, 01/12/2002
How much horse/torque, can I expect from a completly rebuilt 390 GT. with a alum.$bbl intake with a edlebrock 750 double pumper. and after market roller cam with hydrolic lifters. and without power steering/brakes/nad AC. headers. dual exhaust. thanks
Jason
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| | RE: jason -- richard, 01/12/2002
which intake are you using. what are the cam specs. what type and size headers are you using. are the heads stock or ported. what size valves. what compression ratio. answer these questions and we can give you an accurate hp number. if everything is set up for the street just as a very rough(think coal about 200k years before diamonds) i would say between 395 and 440 hp. but with the right number i can give you closer and better info. |
| | | What year and which heads? -- Dave Shoe, 01/12/2002
What is the year of your car/motor, and what is the part number cast into your heads (between center spark plugs). The correct headers can only be bought if you know which type of heads you've got.
If you've got a 390GT with C6AE-R heads (often found only in 1966-67), you want headers compatible with 427 and 428CJ cars. If you've got C6AE-J, -L, -U, C7AE-A, C8AE-H, then you want a header compatible with the 390GT engine.
Shoe. |
| | | RE: jason -- jason, 01/12/2002
K. I'v got a 68 cyclone GT, with athe original 390 motor. head # is C8AE-H. there stock, I have a Edelbrock proformer intake with a 4bbl edlebrock 750 double pumper. compression is 10:5:1, at the moment I have the original cam. duration (int.) 270° duration(exh.) 290° lift (lobe/int.) .278" lift (lobe/exh.) .283" lift(valve/int.) .481" lift (valve/exh.) .490" overlap .36° I'v got a rebuilt toplaoder, with 9" rear posi. 7psi electric fuel pump. the headers have 1.5 inch tubes with 3 inch collecter. and dual straight pipes the rest of the way.. and all non essentail external components ie: AC, power steering and power brakes are gone. and i think thats about it.. thanks.
jason
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| | | | Verify port alignment. -- Dave Shoe, 01/12/2002
You didn't mention who makes the headers.
You'll want to be sure they port match your head. Your heads require the low-exit header flanges, but you may very well have high-exit flanges on your present headers.
High-exit heads have their exhaust ports positioned 5/16 or so higher on the face of the head than low-exit heads do.
Mismatch symptoms include leaky head gaskets and poor breathing.
Shoe. |
| | | | | RE: Verify port alignment. -- jason, 01/13/2002
crap your right. there high exit flanges... I just boxed them up and trying to find a set that will match for a good price... thanks.
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| | | | | | For a good price, offset the holes in the header. -- Dave Shoe, 01/13/2002
FPA makes great fitting and top quality headers. They are a value, but they are not cheap.
You might consider slottong the holes in your present headers to allow them to sit lower on the head. Beware of frame clearances and be ready to pound some dents into the tubes.
Good luck.
Shoe. |
| Info for Shoe on Fred Jones Ford &427's -- david thayer, 01/12/2002
Hey Shoe, long time no see. Fred Jones Ford is (was, now all Ford dealers here in Tulsa got bought out by FOMOC and they are all Tulsa Auto Collection) a very large Ford Dealer here in OK. They were a huge supplier of rebuilt and crate engines.
Back in the good old days, they also had tons of FE stuff. I bought a 427 service block aand steel crank from them in about 1978. Somewhere along there, they dumped all of their stuff real cheap, one guy here in town bought about 60 of the 427 service blocks from them for about $100 ea.
David |
| | You've answered a couple of my questions. -- Dave Shoe, 01/12/2002
Since seeing three crated "Fred Jones" 391 truck shortblocks being sold on ebay almost a year ago ($1200 each, dutch auction, no takers), I've wondered what this shop was about. I've since learned snippets, but your info gives me a solid footing.
Thanks for the insights.
As for the guy who bought the 60 427 crate shortblocks, I imagine he's had to change his phone number, and maybe his name, since word of his purchase got out.
Shoe. |
| | | NOS Blocks -- Royce Peterson, 01/13/2002
These guys still have a few left but none are for sale. Both Greg and Jack have enough money and project cars of their own to justify keeping them indefinitely.
I think they ended up keeping around 25, the rest needed welding, sleeves or were not repairable. That's why NOS blocks should be regarded with caution. If you see blocks with paint marks in the lifter valley such as "006" or "008" etc. these factory marks were referring to the final decimal point in the bore size ie. 4.236" or 4.238" in the example cited. As you can see this is too big for standard bore. Some of the blocks had other types of problems like one or more of the main caps drilled in the wrong location or the water pump holes drilled into the cylinder wall almost all the way through.
Some of these rejected blocks were showing up in Dallas, Texas in the late 1980's and people bought them with no guarantee only to find they owned a NOS block that needed four sleeves and 1/8" decking of the caps to allow a line bore to clean the mismatch. Then a custom timing chain set was necessary to get rid of the slack, etc. Very expensive and time consuming. Buyer Beware of NOS 427 blocks!
Royce Peterson |
| | | RE: Name is Ralph Alex -- david Thayer, 01/13/2002
But don't get excited, I think he sold all of the blocks prior to 1983. Ralph still buys and sells some old Ford stuff. He had a real cool 57 wagon at the show last year. |
| | | | RE: Name is Ralph Alex -- Royce Peterson, 01/14/2002
I have heard them mention Ralph but don't know the guy personally. In any event Jack is the one who ended up with the most blocks until now out of that batch. Did I mention they also got NOS Medium Riser, High Riser and Tunnel Port heads at the same time for fire sale prices? Also carbs, intakes, water pumps, alternators and on and on. The first time I saw all the stuff it was like the Muscle Parts catalog from 1968 had been animated somehow.
Pays to be in the right place at the right time.
Royce Peterson |
| | True story. -- Royce Peterson, 01/12/2002
David,
The blocks from Fred Jones Ford were ordered by Jack Tarner and Greg Reynolds about 1977. They got something like 60 and went through them one by one. Many were rejects from Holman - Moody or other customers. They were able to return the ones that were not usable for a refund.
I purchased one of these blocks from Greg Reynolds around 1993. As I stated in an earlier post it was in the original cardboard container bolted to its original pallet. I passed up on the NOS 428 long block assembly Greg was selling at the same time, I wish now I had bought a lot of his stuff.
Royce Peterson |
| | | RE: True story. -- david thayer, 01/12/2002
Jack Tarner has his 63 T-Bolt, correct me if I am wrong, but I think Ford gave it to him, he ran it in the 64 season, then got a new car for 65.
I think the T-Bolt still has less than 200 miles on it.
David |
| | | | RE: True story. -- Davy Gurley, 01/13/2002
Back in the ealy 70s, I was a counterman in a ford dealership. We sold Fred Jones Remanufactured parts. They had brakes, clutches, engines, transmissions, a/c compressors and many more items. If my memory is correct, we sold FE block assemblies (any cid except 427) for $442.00 plus a $100.00 core charge. Those were the days. The 427 must have been an off catalog item because I never saw it listed in the book. Of course if you wanted a 427 service block, we were happy to order you one. I wanted one but when you are only making 400 per month, there wasn't much left. The good old days, some good some bad. |
| | | | T Bolt -- Royce Peterson, 01/13/2002
Jack has his 64 T Bolt, a 68 1/2 Mustang R code 428 CJ, 69 Sportsroof R code with 110 original miles and a 68 GTE 427 Cougar. My favorite of his cars is the former Ronnie Sox / Buddie Martin '64 Comet 427HR which is one of the most un molested cars around. Jack is rebuilding one of my GTE 427 engines right now.
Greg Reynoldsstill has various Shelbys he runs on the vintage race circuit. He's the only one armed guy I know who can drive a four speed.
Royce Peterson |
| Must see sight for all FE Ford fans -- david thayer, 01/12/2002
There is a great story with pix about Rick Kirk of Ripley Ok at http://www.mothers.com Look under classics, power tour, and on may 8.
Lots of pix of Rick's stuff and stories about his operation.
David |
| late 427 centeroilier prices.. -- Mike, 01/11/2002
how much will i expect to pay for a standard block that will cleanup at .20. thanks. |
| | RE: late 427 centeroilier prices.. -- Ron, 01/12/2002
My guess is that if the block is clean, good shape, no cracks that have been welded, no sleeves, you're looking at $1,000-$1500.
Ron |
| | | RE: late 427 centeroilier prices.. -- Mike, 01/12/2002
thanks, this gives me a idea. the one i described he wants $1500 but it has one braze or weld at the top of two cylinders on the deck in between cylinders 2 and 3, do you think this could be a problem? other than this its very clean. |
| | RE: late 427 centeroilier prices.. -- david thayer, 01/12/2002
Hi Mike,
I have one of these I am wanting to sell. Mine is a clean std bore with no damage. It is currently a RK machine in Ripley OK (see www.mothers.com, power tour, may 8) getting turned into a 454 ci stroker.
it has a std shft 428 flywheel, fomoco deep oilpan and pickup, and the oil-cooler/filter adapter.
I will probably want about 4500 for the whole works.
David |
| Cast 390 and 428 crankshafts -- MustangRacer'67, 01/11/2002
How much horsepower and torque can these factory casts handle? I plan for around 500 HP, plus using NOS (100-150 shot). If the engine goes above 6K RPM, it's only spiking above that. Do I need a forged crank? |
| | RE: Cast 390 and 428 crankshafts -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
I don't think you'll have any problems with a well prepared 390/428 crankshaft below 7,000. There just hasn't been many problems with FE cranks. There have been numerous rod bolt failures.
I would suggest fully prepared rods & forged pistons of course. Staying below 6K, 500 hp/500 lbs. torque, a cast 390/428 crank is up to the job. |
| converting a 390 to a 428. -- jason, 01/11/2002
1 If i am correct the 390 block and 428 blocks are the same size.. So is it possible to convert a 390 into a 428 by simply getting new head and internal components? I just pulled my 390 out of my 68 cyclone. 2 I'm trying to figure out what I should to to get the best proformance possible, any ideas and or pointers would be great. 3. can someone please send info on rebuilding a engine. thanks.
Jason
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| | And if you're not correct? -- Gerry Proctor, 01/11/2002
The blocks are by no means the same size. In most cases, the 390 and 428 heads, intake, and rods are the same casting numbers. Excluding the 428 CJ/SCJ, the unique differences between a 390 and 428 are the block casting, the crank, the pistons, and the flywheel/flexplate.
There is a remote possibility that you can bore the 390's 4.05 bore .080 oversize to the 428's 4.13 bore, but there is usually insufficient cylinder wall left to call this a realistic option. You can use the 428 crank to achieve the 428 if, and this is a big if, your 390 block is able to go .080 over.
There are a lot of books available, like "How to rebuild your Bigblock Ford" that will guide you through the mechanicals. |
| | | don't forget balancing & compression issues -- Never Forget, 01/11/2002
nm |
| | Building an engine -- Ron Vesterby, 01/11/2002
The subject of engine building is very interesting. Some want to do it to say "I built it myself" a worthy reason, others want to save a little money, another good reason. My suggestion is if you are inclined to build it your self, go to the library and check out some books on the subject. Another good idea is join a car club, as there are usually members who will be glad to help you. And/or ask around and find a reputable engine builder or machine shop. Be honest with them and tell them what you are up to. They will give you some numbers for machine work you will need done by them regardless. With that in hand figure out the cost of parts you need to purchase. Sit down with the calculator and see what you total investment will be before you start. You gotta have a plan with a final cost. And after all that money you are going to spend doesnt bother you, then get after it. Not trying to be discouraging, but I know of to many engine building projects that never got done. Here is another thought, look through the internet for used engines, or contact some salvage yards, some specialize in used engines with varying warrenties. How good and strong your engine will be will more than likely be very linear to how much you invest. Personally, I read car magazines for years before I built my first engine, gather information and fortitude. I was 30 years old. Interestingly enough the engine I first built was a 428 CJ for a 69 Torino with a bunch of parts I purchased from Drake Viscome (sp) in New York some where. Good luck, and if you got the will to do it, go ahead, it is a satifying experience. |
| | RE: You can easily get about 416 Cubes if. -- R Shannon, 01/11/2002
One more thing. Got to have the 428 crank and flywheel/flexplate or aftermaket equivlents. 410 30 over pistons or aftermarket equivlents. 060 over will yield you about 421 cu. in. You have to match the right pistons with the 428 crank or they'll smack the heads due to the extra stroke. |
| | | RE: Drake Viscome?! -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
Now there's a name that brings back some memories. Vindicator Racing, right Ron? I remember his wild ads in the good old true Super Ford by John Paradise. When John sold out to a big publisher, it was straight downhill. Anyway, Drake had some good stuff and he ran it.
Hey Jason, if you don't have a 428 crank and block handy, don't give up on that 390 from your Cyclone. I'd suggest you pick up the brand new Mustangs & FORDS. The one with a Mach I 428 CJ on the cover with Washington State licenses. See we have more than just the chokin' chicken 'hawks from bush city by the sea!
There's a great article in this new issue about a guy who built a 12 second 390GT '67 Mustang. It's a total streeter. C6AE-R heads and Ford tri power. Finding those C6AE-R heads should be a lot easier and cheaper than finding/paying for a 428 set up. A well built 390 will be very competitive. |
| | | | RE: Drake Viscome?! -- jason, 01/11/2002
Great.... Thanks alot for the feedback guys.... youv given me a whole new gameplan. since I'm new to this whole car thing I'll be back with a crap load of Q's. (i'm only 18) since most of you guys have have a dozen of more years of this then me. I'll be turnning to you for some guidence... thanks again. and happy driven
Jason |
| | | | RE: Drake Viscome?! -- Ron Vesterby, 01/11/2002
You are correct about Vindicator - forgot that part of his ads - he always had a butt full of FE stuff- You are right also about the Super Ford early days like in the late 70's - still got some of those issues stashed - guess they would be good ebay material - it is amazing how life in the past was always better and slower - |
| Stroking 390 to 410. -- MustangRacer'67, 01/11/2002
Quick question, what exactly needs tobe done to stroke a 390 out to 410 (I know I need a 428 crank).
If I do this, and then bore it out .030 or .050 over, what displacement would I have?
Thanks! |
| | RE: Stroking 390 to 410. -- Ron Vesterby, 01/11/2002
A .030 overbore yields approximatly 5 Cubic Inches |
| | RE: Stroking 390 to 410. -- R Shannon, 01/11/2002
428 crank and flywheel/flexplate, due to the balancing differences, 410 pistons due to the pin placement differences. |
| | | RE:first: buy good pistons -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
You mentioned in your other post, 500 hp and nitros, right?
Okay, like they're telling you, get everything from a 410/428, i.e., crank, dampner, flexplate or flywheel, and then choose your block by sonic testing cylinder thickness so you'll know whether you have to buy custom made forged 410 pistons or readily available 428 pistons. Nitros Oxide = forged pistons.
It's simple. Just open up your wallet and start diggin' it out. |
| | Engine math... -- Dan Davis, 01/11/2002
cubic inches = bore^2 x stroke x 0.7854 x #_of_cylinders
Dan |
| C4AES425D intake? -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
What intake is this? It's a dual four. It sits on a 427 that's installed in a beautiful '40 Ford Coupe. With a 4 speed! A true Hot Rod. No air conditioning either.
A friend just called who was doing some work on this car. It belongs to Chuck Little who is the dad of NASCAR racer Chad Little. A local hero. Both Dad, who raced nothing but Fords for years and Chad who raced mostly Fords until lately. Chuck bought this car in Tennessee last year. It is a top notch rod.
My friend was doing some Holley carb work on it and he started looking at the intake and thought it looked a little different than other old FE dual quads he has seen in years past. So he calls me and I don't know this # off the top of my head but I'm suspecting it to be.....maybe a High Riser?
C4AES425D?
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| | can't find anything on that! n/m -- mikeb, 01/11/2002
n/m |
| | Maybe the "S" is a 9? n/m -- Barry B, 01/11/2002
n/m |
| | | RE: and that would make it? -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
You may be right. He gave me the # over the phone this morning and he enunciated very clearly and I asked twice and reviewed it. Maybe he'd splashed some high octane in his eyes?
I'm not home where I could check my own resources - I'm at work!! Lucky me.
So if it was C4AE9425D, that would make it a ? |
| | | | I knew you were going to ask that -- Barry B, 01/11/2002
I'm at work too (don't tell the boss). I'll see what I got at home tonight. Maybe someone else here will check it out. Sorry, my memories gone! |
| | | | | RE: me too.. -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
I know what you mean Barry. I'll race ya to see who can find it in whatever resource!
Back to work I go. |
| | | | | | RE: High Riser! -- Mike McQuesten, 01/11/2002
I just couldn't wait so I called the local source, John Saxon. John read it from the book: C4AE9425D = dual four, dual plane '64 Ford 427 High Riser.
The heads on this 427 in a '40 Ford: C4AE-F.
Not a bad combination for a '40 Coupe. |
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