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| 427 8v PCV question -- Mike K, 02/12/2003
I am ditching the tunnel wedge that has been on the engine for something more streetable. I have bought a blue thunder medium riser and I had a question about PCV/Power Brake hookups. The tunnel wedge had no vacuum ports so I had been using a spacer plate vacuum source for all needs. (pony carbs rebuilt the bc/bd combo and recommended ditching the spacers)
Now that I have the new manifold it has all kinds of vacuum ports on it (base of rear carb + 3 others). What should be hooked up where? I am thinking about the PCV to port at the base of the rear carb but was wondering if this has higher vacuum and would be better for PDB. Also, it has the metal basket at the rear of the intake - should this be involved some how? As of now it looks like its not hooked up to anything - just a vent. As always, thanks for the help. Mike |
| Best intake & carb for low RPM 390 truck motor -- Chris Rinehart, 02/12/2003
I currently have a stock '69 390 w/ 2 bbl setup in my '65 F250. The cam is a replacement of some sort, specs unknown. The motor doesn't pull too good below 2000. I've been thinking about changing to an aluminum intake and 4 bbl for overall performance, and getting a torque RV cam for better low end. Any suggestions about the best aluminum intake to use for low-mid RPM, and what size carb is decent (600 cfm?)- or whether I should even go to a 4 bbl? I've been pushed to the Weiand single plane, but think this may only be good higher up. |
| | RE: Best intake & carb for low RPM 390 truck motor -- Gerry Proctor, 02/13/2003
Well you could go to an Edelbrock Performer (not the RPM) if you're only interested in low-rpm grunt but it's not going to be a remarkable improvement over the iron 2bbl in the rpm range you're interested in. About all you're going to accomplish is saving some weight. I think the Edelbrock Performer series of intakes has become the consumer standard as far as delivering promised performance in their design range. I would avoid that Weiand single plane at all costs.
If you did go to a replacement intake, go with the Holley 1850-series 600 cfm vacuum secondary or the comparable Edelbrock 600 CFM. You could also use the Autolite 4bbl, but it's so much easier going with something new that doesn't need a rebuild. |
| I just ordered Erson E918502's -- Geoff McNew, 02/12/2003
....let's see what happens. |
| | Is that the number for the Erson Roller Rockers?NM -- Royce Peterson, 02/12/2003
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| | RE: I just ordered Erson E918502's -- Geoff McNew, 02/12/2003
yep. wish me luck |
| | | RE: I just ordered Erson E918502's -- Royce Peterson, 02/12/2003
I bought some last year and am very happy with them. Awesome engineering.
Royce |
| | | | RE: I just ordered Erson E918502's -- Geoff McNew, 02/14/2003
I corresponded with a Bob Sprowl here a while back. He's using them on Edelbrock heads (I've got stock CJ) and as I recall, he had to relieve the under side of the Erson base on the ends to clear the heads on his ARP fasteners. Did they "bolt on" for you? |
| | | | | Mine fit with no problems. -- Royce Peterson, 02/14/2003
I have them on a set of C8AE-J Cobra Jet heads on top of one of my 427's. They bolted on and fit with no problems. I have stock head bolts.
Royce
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| | | | | | RE: Mine fit with no problems. -- Geoff McNew, 02/15/2003
Are you using head bolt washers or not? My local FE guru tells me I want to add washers so the bolts torque up nicely, but I figure no way they'll fit. |
| | | | | | | RE: Mine fit with no problems. -- Royce Peterson, 02/15/2003
I am just using the stock bolts with no washers. The ARP bolts require washers. If you are using Edelbrock heads I recommend the ARP bolts, there will be additional machine work needed to use stock bolts.
Royce |
| | One more month -- Wayne K., 02/16/2003
They should ship around the middle of March according to Tom at Erson/Mr. Gasket.
I've received everything else I ordered from them (cam, lifters, springs, retainers, locks, push rods). Now just waiting for the rocker setup...
Wayne K. |
| | | RE: One more month -- Geoff McNew, 02/17/2003
Ordered mine thru Summit...looks like mid April right now. |
| engine software for PC -- Truck, 02/11/2003
Newbie, Looking for suggestion/recomendations on software to look at cam profiles, rod/stroke combinations etc for windows. |
| | DeskTop Dyno 2000 -- John, 02/18/2003
There's a website for it somewhere as I've been to it. You'll have to search. Also, I've seen it on E-Bay.
There's a book available from SA DEsign on getting the "most" from this software also. Summit used to sell the book and software as a combo package I think. They might still have it if you call. |
| | | | RE: JC Whitney $39.95, cheapest I found.... -- Truck, 02/19/2003
Thanks for the info, it will give me some things to look at. |
| | | | | You probably want the Cam Disk too -- Martin Micheelsen, 02/19/2003
The J.C. Whitney deal is for the software only. You most likely want to get the package deal that includes all the Cam Disk, rather than have to track down all the possible cam specs and enter them yourself. At Motionsoftware.com - the originators of DeskTop Dyno - you can get both for 69.99 |
| Overdrive for a Tbird -- allan, 02/11/2003
Has anyone found an overdrive transmission that will bolt up to a 390 and fit a 65 tbird? |
| | RE: Overdrive for a Tbird -- Gary Adam, 02/11/2003
Lentech Automatics make an FE AOD that can handle good horsepower and torque. A friend of mine is running a Lentech behind a hi-performance 460 in a 1970 Montego for about a year now and loves it. (370 posi.) Give them a call @ (613) 838-5390. |
| | | RE: Overdrive for a Tbird -- allan, 02/11/2003
Thanks for the info. I'll send them an email and see what they have to say. |
| | | | RE: Overdrive for a Tbird -- allan, 02/14/2003
Well I got the info from Lentec. They have a AOD tranny that will bolt to a 390 but I'll have to mortgage the house and give them my first born to get everything needed to make it work. I also found out that Gear Vendors O/D won't fit a 65 Cruise-O-Matic. Does anyone know if Ford ever built an O/D transmission that fit a 390 while they were still in production? If I have to buy a transmission that a Gear Vendors O/D will fit, I might as well try to find a tranny that already has O/D in it. |
| | | | | RE: Overdrive for a Tbird -- Darel, 02/15/2003
Allan, I have a '61 that I'm building into a mild street rod. My solution to the whole overdrive thing is swapping in a C6 this year, then further down the road when i get the money adding a GV, and just running 3.25 gears in the meantime. Not exactly what you want to hear, but short of one of the rare factory overdrive trannies it's my best solution. I too priced the Lentechs. Wow! Darel |
| | | | | | to clarify... -- Darel, 02/15/2003
...when I said "rare factory overdrives" I meant like on the little birds, not for the big birds. Sorry if I caused confusion. |
| | | | | | | RE: to clarify... -- allan, 02/15/2003
Do you happen to know what cars had the rare factory overdrive trannys with the 390? Since I plan on keeping this car for a long time I can continue running the COM until something else turns up. I just can't justify spending over $3000 just for O/D when I already have something that gets me down the road. |
| | | | | | | | RE: to clarify... -- Darel, 02/17/2003
Honestly, I don't know for sure, but the 55-57 birds had an overdrive option. I think there was a HP option for the 58-60 Birds, which also had an OD tranny, but I know so little about it that it could have been a manual since TBirds still had them available (though rare) until '61. A 55-57 definitely wouldn't work b/c that's the old Y-Bolck engine, but if you did find one from the 58-60 it should work since most had 352s except certain 430-equipped cars. But, I gotta say, once you've found that rare tranny, got it in good working order, and swapped it in, you'll probably have over $3000 in it. Darel |
| | | | | | | | | RE: to clarify... -- allan, 02/17/2003
My thought was to try to find a more modern O/D transmission. Since Ford used the 390 in so many cars and trucks, I thought there may be something newer that might be useable. An automatic with O/D out of a Galaxie or even a pickup with a 390 that was widely used would be the ideal solution. I just don't know how to go about finding out what Ford was using in the various product lines back then. |
| | | | | | | | | | ain't no such animal, they quit making the 390.... -- hawkrod, 02/17/2003
they quit making the FE engine long before they started making an AOD trans. your only options are aftermarket, custom adapters, or stick overdrives. my favorite is the orion 3sp OD from a late 70's ford truck or van. they are a modified ford 4 speed regeared to work like a 3speed OD. they are not bullet proof but i have had very good luck with them on street cars. hawkrod |
| S code rebuild -- richard, 02/10/2003
Just bought a rolling shell 68 S code factory GT with 4 speed. The engine is blown and a spare block is provided... not familiar with details of engine rebuilding, just the concepts.
With this level of replacement/repair is there any real difference going with after market vs original style components (not talking NOS, just mods to cam, pistons, etc due to 30 years of engineering advances).
Not looking to make a 500hp brute, just rebuild it to near original, but if there are minor changes that can be made that will improve drivablity/performance without costing a whole lot more I'd be interested.
Any sources for info on this apprecited... also posting on the Big Block forum.... |
| | RE: S code rebuild -- McQ, 02/10/2003
"just rebuild it to near original"...okay here's my recs:
have a quality, trustworthy, recommended machine shop do the rebuild for you.
Build the 390 short block to stock specs including a C6OZ-6250-B cam which is the stock cam for a '66 - '68 390GT. You may have to shop around and I think a similar grind cam is available from Crane. I think it's offered through their "factory blueprint" series. Check Cranecams.com. Run the whole kit including the cam grinder's matching lifters, valve springs.
Have the trusted machine shop improve the oil flow a little between the oil pump & filer adaptor. Follow their recommendations on oil pump. I think a HD oil pump drive shaft is a good idea. Available from ARP. A stock Unibody oil pan is fine for all around mild performance driving. Oh and do run a windage tray which is still available from Ford's High Performance line - Ford Racing Parts.
Heads? Most likely you have a set of C8AE-H. Have the trusty machinists rebuild them stock adding those new valve springs. They might suggest restricting the oil passages and that's not a bad idea. I would run new adjustable rockers to obtain 1.76 ratio. With hydraulics you'll only have to adjust them once. You just get a little bit more lift out of your smooth but broad power range GT cam. Your max RPM will be around 5,700, maybe 5,800 tops. Which is plenty for your intended use. And that 390 will rip fine from idle to the high 5's.
Induction: Edelbrock Performer RPM topped off with a carb of 600-700 CFM. Edelbrocks AFB style carb is easy to work with it performs. I think you can buy a new Holley 600CFM center pivot float style that'll look very close to the original. And because it's new it'll work. If you got the original Holley 600 with your package, send it to Joe Bunetic and let him work his magic on it and it'll be good as new, er actually better.
Ignition: Run the MSD distributor and 6A or AL box. Not an inexpensive ignition but it'll light 'er up.
Headers - FPA for the C8AE-H. The stock GT ex. manifolds make great shop wall deco.
Gearing - 3.50.
Traction Bars - Traction Master still offers them and they're reasonable. Stick shift Mustangs/Fairlanes, etc. need leaf spring support/assistance or you'll embarass yourself jumping around like a jack rabbit when you light those 60 series meats up.
Quick and somewhat random thoughts. You're a very lucky man to have come upon a '68 S code 'stang.
I'm sure there'll be lots of great ideas coming. |
| | RE: S code rebuild -- peter, 02/11/2003
Richard, sounds like you have your hands full, I recon' you should sell me the GT and concentrate on the convertable....:)
Peter......;) |
| | | RE: S code rebuild and MSD Distributor -- Martin Micheelsen, 02/11/2003
If you go the MSD route - please note that MSD only recently came out with a FE distributor WITH the vacum advance unit. The vacum advance unit is a must for non-race engines. It is PN#8595 and it may not be in all the catalogs yet. |
| | | RE: S code rebuild -- richard, 02/17/2003
I have plenty of time once the 'vert is done. Now all I need is a 68 S code fastback to complete the set!
;-) |
| | | | I know of a 69 R code fastback...;)n/m -- pop428, 02/17/2003
n/m |
| | | | | yep...seen that one.. pretty dodgy car.. ;-) n/m -- richard, 02/18/2003
n/m |
| Anyone using zinc or magnesium annodes ? -- P, 02/10/2003
I don't want to repeat a post on another forum, so I'll just ask the question about annodes being used for protection of aluminum components (like intake manifolds).
There has been a discussion about tapping into the intake manifold and using a threaded connection to insert a sacrificial annode, such as found in water heaters, and I believe there is something for cars too. Zinc and magnesium have been discussed. Anyone have any experience with this?
P |
| | | | Sounds like good science. -- Dave Shoe, 02/10/2003
The zinc would work well and last longer, but the magnesium would work better and dissolve away more quickly. Since the magnesium will still last a fairly long time in the comparatively inert antifreeze mix (compared to ocean water), it will likely offer better protection. Since the anode dissolves into the coolant more quickly than plain iron or aluminum would, you'll probably want want to replace the coolant a bit more often than normally.
I like the idea of having a magnesium anode on the radiator cap, but might decide to wait for them to come out with a combination magnesium anode/jumper cable radiator cap combo, so I could jump a dead battery using the reactivity of the cooling system.
Maybe they'll offer one next year.
Shoe. |
| | | | | Where is the anode on newer cars.. -- Lee, 02/12/2003
Many newer auto's have alum though out them yet I have never heard of a concern for this corrosion problem. Also owners manuals never mention checking on the condition of an anode. How do they combat this problem?
Lee |
| | | | | | RE: Where is the anode on newer cars.. -- Highspeed, 02/13/2003
Just by using phosphate-free low silica coolant. |
| 60 hipo bird -- Lou, 02/09/2003
About 6 years ago I bought a very rusty 60 Thunderebird coupe that is a 352/360 hp standard with od car. I had a line on a rust free 60 T-bird Conv at the time that I was going to restore with the 360 and overdrive. Health issues put a damper on that project so I would like to sell the Bird or just the engine, but I have no idea what to ask. I also have the correct headers for this engine that were used in the Galxie. What I don't have is the correct aircleaner, or the 15 inch wheels. There is 24,000 miles on the engine rebuild and 3000 on the trans. I put oil in the spark plug holes, and have tunned it over every 6 months sence I got it. This is the real thing including the B9A block. What the car or just the engine worth? |
| | RE: 60 hipo bird -- Mike McQ, 02/10/2003
A 1960 Thunderbird with a 352HP-360 horsepower, stick and overdrive is very rare. I personally have never seen one. I'm unable to find anything in my limited old Ford materials that would indicate that such an option was available for the '60 T-bird. Please understand though that I'm not saying that such an option wasn't available. I would really like to see/read some documentation that the 360 horse thumper was available to 'bird buyers.
So what we need is information such as the VIN of your 'bird. The '60 and '61 HP options did not receive unique VIN engine codes. For 1960 the letter Y 5th digit in would indicate a possible HP. For 1961 the letter was Z. This is confusing because the Y for '60 indicated standard 300 horse 352 or 360 horse. The Z indicated 300 horse 390 for '61 or it the car could have been a 375 single Holley 4V or a 401 horse triple Holley car. Any other materials that indicate a letter other than Y for '60 or Z for '61 are just plain wrong.
Now for that 360 horse engine, does it have HP specific items, i.e., aluminum intake, Holley carb, dual point distributor, solid lifer cam/lifters, a 3/8" fuel line, larger 3" front brake drums, unique style/larger harmonic dampner? These are a few of the important obvious details that made a 352 a hipo.
And of course you know that those HP exhaust manifolds would never have fit in your '60 bird stock. So the HP 352 you have came with the box style non hipo manifolds? Is your 'bird equipped with the hard to replace/duplicate full 3/8" fuel line?
Again, I'm not saying your car wasn't built in some special way at the factory with a 360 horse plant. Or that someone years ago didn't transplant the engine from a '60 full size. I know the stick/OD was available for the last time in '60. So making an engine switch wouldn't be difficult minus the HP exhaust manifolds.
Your basic question is what's the value? It's tough to say but if you can provide us/me with more details on what you have on that B9A block(and being a B9A block does lend credibility to your claim that the engine is a hipo) I'll give you my best guess. |
| | | Along the same line -- Greg, 02/10/2003
Was the 352 "special" the standard engine for the '60 bird? Greg |
| | | | RE: Isn't that Special... -- McQ, 02/10/2003
The term "Special" was used to describe the 2V and the 4V.
I have a '60 4 door parts car that does have the original window sticker. Its original engine was a 352-2V and on the sticker its titled 352 Special. Right.
So I think yes the 352-4V Special was the standard engine in the '60 T bird. |
| | | | | This May interest you. -- Lou, 02/11/2003
I have the orginial invoice for this car, bought new from Adams Ford in San Fransico. I also know of 4 other such cars, on the east coast. There was one acutioned a Scotsdale in 1999. Overdrive was available on Thunderbirds thru 1961, and a know that in 1962 a 4 speed was offered but I do not know if any were built for the public. (there was a 62 Sports Roadster with a 4 speed at the Ormond Garage in Daytona during speed week, 1962, It had Michigan manufacture plates on it) Back to my original question whats it worth? |
| | | | | | the HIPO info is correct but 60 was the last year -- hawkrod, 02/11/2003
1960 was the last year for the stick shift tbird. all the production 61-70 someodd's were automatic transmission. this was primarily to do with the market direction and also because the new swingaway column gets in the way of the pedals. a stick can be done, but ford never did it for the public. hawkrod |
| | | | | | | RE:worth? -- Mike McQ, 02/11/2003
Lou, I'm not disputing that a 360 horse 352 was available in the '60 bird. I'm just trying to learn and document the facts.
You want the value. Please provide answers to these questions:
The 'bird's main fuel line size? Is it 5/16" or 3/8"
Front Brake drum width?
These things matter because Ford was being very careful to re enter the performance field after being out for two full years with a fully integrated performance package.
The engine:
intake, aluminum or not? carburetor? Holley with a '60 part #? dual point distributor? solid lifters?
All of these parts must be there to lend credibility and value to your high performance 352.
VIN# specifically the 5th unit in?
I firmly believe that a few '60 Thunderbirds were built with the 300 horse 352-4V and a stickshift and overdrive.
The cars that were built with the 360 HP engine were built on special order on a very limited basis in '60. A DSO designation of PAO on the build sheet indicates that the vehicle was built on days when all regular production was caught up.
To find out now after years of research that 360 horse 352 HiPo '60 Thunderbirds were built would be a wonderful revelation and I want to do all that I can to support you.
BTW, there's a standard bore B9A block right now on eBay for starting bid of $175.
|
| | | | | | | | Hawkrod -- Lou, 02/11/2003
Dan Kopolla Sr whos son Dan Jr owned Kopolla Ford 500 Kings Highway, Fairfield Connecticut. Had a 61 T-bird standard with overdrive, I'm sure of this as I serviced the car. Dan Jr was better known for the Plymouth Dealership he had in Westport, Connecticut and the FX Plymouths he raced at Dover Dragstrip (Dover Plains, NY) the early sixties. |
| | | | | | | | | i didn't say they didn't exist..... -- hawkrod, 02/12/2003
i said ford did not build them for production. some dealers are documented to have converted cars and there may heve been some preproduction mules but you could not go to the dealer and factory order them. i have a partial set of instructions for converting cars and how to assemble the parts written by a ford mechanic who did a half a dozen or more between 61-63. he told me most were overdrive conversions but some were 4 speeds. this one is easy to prove using a 1961 edition of the parts book as it was printed before production began in mid 60. the parts books are printed in advance so they usually contain parts listings for stuff that is not available (the 71 copy shows all the parts for a 71 boss 302 mustang which was never made). the lack of clutch linkage and hardware in the 61 parts book is a pretty good indication of fords intent because even if they were planning on stick shift and then didn't do it the parts would have been in the book. hawkrod |
| | | | | | | | Mike -- Lou, 02/11/2003
Contack the Square Bird club, they should be able give you the information you need. As for my car come see for yourself. Working in a Ford dealership in one of the richest town in the world I got to see many odd fords. Many of them I have been told weren't built , like the new Hipo 63 Falcon I bought myself for my 21 birthday. |
| | | | | | | | | How about more info on the Falcon, Lou? [n/m] -- Mr F, 02/12/2003
n/m |
| | | | | | | | | | 63 HiPo Falcon -- Lou, 02/12/2003
When the fast back Falcon sprint came out in mid 1963 I fell in love with the car. I asked Ted Coppola, Dans brother, and sale managner, if he could get me one with a 271 Hp 289 and a 4 speed. At first he told me no Ford wouldn't make it. I said no hipo no deal. About 3 weeks later he came to me and said he could get the car but it would cost me $2750.00 I said Not at that price. A day or two later I had to do a dealer swap with New Milford Ford, I got to talking with the sale manager and he said that he had ordered 2 such cars. One was still there, and had not been picked up buy the buyer (They only had a $100.00 deposit) If the car wasn't picked up by the end of the week I could have it for $2450.00. ( which was still a lot of money for a Falcon) But the car was black with a Red interior, which was what I wanted so I wound up buying it. I had the car untill 1969 when I sold it to a friend. In 1978 I bought it back and did a full restoration on it in 1984 after I sold my 56 Crown Glass Top. Around 1990 the Falcon club made the stement that no HiPo 63 Falcons were built I contacked them and offered to show them the car and my orginial paper work on it. I never received a reply. I traded the Falcon in 1992 for two partly restord 57 Ford "E" models , a Fairlane 500 2 door Hardtop and a Fairlane 2 Hard top. The last I heard of the Falcon it was in the Imperial Palace collection in Las Vegas, I was there in 2000 and the car was not there and they could not give me any information on the car. |
| | | | | | | | | | | you're teasing me Lou... -- Barry B, 02/12/2003
I love those Falcons too, have a '63 1/2 Sprint conv. that came with the engine dress-up kit, all stock.
Have a question, did your 289 have the HiPo exhaust manifolds? I have been told that they don't fit the early Falcon engine bays.
Another question, did your Squarebird 352 have the HiPo exhaust manifolds? I thought only the logs would fit those.
Thanks a lot! |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Barry, no on both counts.(n/m) -- Lou, 02/12/2003
N/m |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | OK, now that that's out of the way, -- Lou, 02/15/2003
what do you guys think the my rust bucket 60 HiPo T-Bird is worth? |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: OK, now that that's out of the way, -- McQ, 02/18/2003
Well Lou I think you need to follow the advice you gave me....."contact the square bird club....." Apparently they have the facts on HiPo '60 T-birds. I sure won't give a guesstimate based on a lack of answers to basic questions, i.e., 3/8" fuel line? Dual Point distributor? Aluminum Intake? Holley Carb? Solid lifter camshaft? I'm not the one asking for the value. I don't need to do the research. Good luck. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | I've talked to them already -- Lou, 02/18/2003
I've talked to the square bird club they seem to think $5,000 to $6,000 which I feel is much to high. Reguarding the questions you asked, about the HiPo items the answer is yes. As I said the only things not not there is the aircleaner, and the 15 inch wheels. I'm more interested in the parts being used to build a rare 60 Ford or a 60 T-Bird then making a lot of money. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: Alright now -- Mike McQ, 02/18/2003
Now we're talkin'. Here's my guesstimates based on some limited knowledge (always learning!):
Solid standard bore B9A block.....$175-$200. COAE-D heads......$400 '60 HP aluminum intake......$350 unique timing cover/pointer.......$200(these are tough to find, made of tin, unique timing pointer that's needed with HP dampner). dual point distributor....$100 - $150 Good original stock HP solid camshaft to a purist...$100 (although I would not run that specific cam due to the retaining system. I would use the original cam to have a new cam ground that uses the '63 & later cam retaining system. Have the B9A block modfified to accept this.) An original COAE - 540 CFM High Performance 352 specific Holley carb....$350.
These parts separately add up to $1,700. I came up with these by having watched eBay for the last year and a half for all things specific to FE with particular attention paid to 352/390HP items. And I'm also a longtime nut for '60 - '61 HPs
So.....a package deal of $1,500 for a true, genuine 1960 352 High Performance engine less the very difficult to find original air cleaner and reasonably easy to find shorty HP exhaust manifolds would seem a reasonable price....just my humble opinion. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: the HP dampner -- Mike McQ, 02/18/2003
Oh and that HP specific dampner: I know of one that sold for $7 on eBay because the seller didn't know what it was and had it listed wrong/poorly and the guy who won it knows his s#%&! Sadly that wasn't me. They've also sold for $150 because the seller knew that the '60 HP352, '61 HP 390 and most of the '62 406s used the same balancer/dampner. The C2A balancer came on the scene in very late '62 and was the balancer used on '63 - '64 427s.
So tag on another $100 to that "appraised by me" $1,500 HP 352 package deal and it's looking even sweeter.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: HP Damper plus... -- McQ, 02/18/2003
Obviously I've been thinking too much about this 352HP ID thing.
But there are two additonal items that will indicate your 352HP is genuine, The oil pan and pump. They are different on the HP vs. the standard "Special" 352s. The HP pan is nearly one inch deeper on the back shallow end. Ford found that this small addition helped reduce oil temperature.
The HP oil pump has an extended body, allowing use of a longer, stiffer relief spring. It will have a casting number right on it of COAE-6600 and it's obviosuly different than most FE oil pumps.
And a last thing on that vibration damper I was spelling "damper" earlier (where was I coming up with that N? typing too fast during break, that's it) the actual part # listed in an old Ford parts book shows COAE-6316-D for the 390HP/406. Yours will have a casting # that will probably be COAE-6316-D.
Now that has to be it from me. I keep thinking that if I only had another true '60 Ford HP car.... I'd need that engine.
|
| Robbie 427 Mustangs?? -- David Thayer, 02/09/2003
while looking through a SS & Drag Illustrated from 1967 I noticed an ad from a place called Robbie Ford Mustangs from Dorcester Mass. The ad read "427 Wedge Mustangs, $3895". I have never seen anything on these and was wondering if anyone else had heard of these.
David |
| | Interesting. -- Royce Peterson, 02/09/2003
Since they never made any 427 Mustangs at the factory maybe this dealer was taking a page from Tasca's book and offering a combination not made by the factory to attract the performance crowd.
Royce |
| | This guy obviously was bamboozled...... -- kevin, 02/09/2003
into believing this, and is passing it on. Someone did a good job of covering up the surgery required. If Ford thought they would not have to widen the bay for the T-Bolts, they would not have farmed them out to DST to do so. Bean counters were still an important part to the racing program. While it brings back my early Hi School memories of a 64 "K" code car, with a 63 front clip, (I liked it better that way) it cant be done. His name says it all. He should stick to the plastic pachyderms, (Corvettes) he probably knows better. Yeah, my 63 split window was an original 454, just dont tell anybody. |
| | | Note that he didn't publish the serial number n/m -- Lou, 02/09/2003
n/m |
| | | | RE: He does say "larger engine" -- David Thayer, 02/09/2003
he does make reference to a non stock engine |
| | | | | RE: He does say "larger engine" -- Pete's Ponies, 02/09/2003
there's no doubt that an FE is in there. The point is that he said it had no modifications to get it done. |
| | | | RE: Note that he didn't publish the serial number n/m -- Pete's Ponies, 02/09/2003
well they never came with FE's, so the serial number would mean nothing. |
| | | | | RE: Note that he didn't publish the serial number n/m -- Travis Miller, 02/09/2003
The serial number of each of the 100 Thunderbolts built by DST means everything! |
| | | | | | RE: Note that he didn't publish the serial number n/m -- Pete's Ponies, 02/09/2003
be serious, who is alluding to the fact that tis is a Thunderbolt? Have you looked at the auction? |
| | | | | | | FE in a 64 Fairlane -- Travis Miller, 02/10/2003
The FE will fit without modifications to the shock towers if the 352/390 flat exhaust manifolds are used. The shock towers on the Thunderbolts were modified so the 427 could have headers.
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| | | | | | | | RE: FE in a 64 Fairlane -- McQ, 02/10/2003
I'm chipping in rather late on this one but I had to have a look and now can't help myself.
A '63 grill and moulding? Right. I can tell you that the bumper on that '64 is a '62/'63 and I would speculate the entire nose may be from a '63 donor 'lane. The '63 & '64 Fairlane nose will interchange obviously but the '63 hood is just enough different that a '63 moulding is not a bolt on to a '64.
I didn't know that an FE would fit in an early model Fairlane without shock tower/control arm mods even with the "Box" ex. manifolds. Had I known that many years ago I woudn't have wasted so much time fitting a 351W with exhaust manifolds into my '64 Fairlane 500 hardtop. At that time, '84, I couldn't find headers that would work with the W into the early unibody Fairlanes/Meteors. Even the Total Performance tubes were wrong but they worked fine in a Falcon/351W combo. Upper control arms on Fairlane/Meteors are a challenge.
Hmmm, an FE will bolt in with box manifolds.....even with those restrictive items a '62-'65 Fairlane with FE would be a fun driver. And look what the bid is up to on this car! The '62-'65 Fairlane is not that difficult to find in decent condition. And the '65s are very reasonable. There's a few of us who like them as well as the vaunted '64. |
| | | | | | | | | RE: Travis are you sure? -- Mike McQ, 02/11/2003
I got to doing some dangerous thinking after reading this entire thread & quickly responding last night.
Are you sure Travis that an FE with the flat standard box style exhaust manifolds will fit into a '62 - '65 Fairlane engine cavity without modifications? I'm having a difficult time believing this. Here's why:
I saw with my own eyes a '66 Cyclone GT where a guy had bought it without engine/trans and installed what he had which was a 390 with the flat/box exhaust manifolds. He had it for sale and I couldn't keep myself from looking. I popped that glass hood and had a look. He fired it up and sure enough the driver's side exhaust manifold was bangining away on the shock tower. I pointed this out indicating in as nice a way possible that the wrong manifolds were in the Cyclone. Needless to say the price was too high to consider purchasing due to overall condition, wrong parts, etc.
So I'd always thought/assumed that there was no way that an FE could neatly fit in an early/mid sixties Fairlane. The Fairlane/Meteors have larger upper control arms than the Falcon/Comet/Mustangs.
Installing a 351W into a Falcon/Comet/'64-'66 Mustang is a tight fit but reasonably doable where it's much more difficult to install the -W- "small" block into the early Fairlane/Meteor.
If an FE will go into a '64 Fairlane with the flat box style exhaust manifolds, the big block will fit into a '64-'66 Mustang even easier.
Are you sure? I've got two '64 Fairlane parts cars without engines left. I have FE blocks laying in the dirt(not special ones) and C-6s & sticks. You've got me thinking about making the effort to "mock" this up to really see that it can be done. But you know that this still takes a lot of time especially to get these parts all situated for the attempt.
The pics of that '64 hardtop/390 on eBay aren't clear enough or detailed enough for me to what mods may have been done to the shock towers.
Just a lot of rambling from me as I wonder/dream about building a nice driving '62-'65 Fairlane with a 390GT/C-6/9" home done.
Which leads me to wonder that if the flat/box manifolds will fit wouldn't the GT or even CJ fit even better? |
| | | | | | | | | | the pict are tooo dark -- Bob H., 02/12/2003
but I think that they have been cut and flattened to make the FE fit every one I have ever seen need to widen the space between the shock towers ot put any big block in!! MY $0.02 |
| | | | | | | | | | RE: Travis are you sure? -- Travis Miller, 02/18/2003
Sorry to take so long in responding to this thread but it took a while to get hold of my friend who put a 390 in a 64 Fairlane he owned years ago. He said it is a tight fit but the 390 went in with no mods to the shock towers by using the flat exhaust manifolds. |
| | | | | | | | | | | RE: thanks Travis -- McQ, 02/19/2003
That's good news! This could be a great economical project. Economical project? Right.
As I said earlier there's plenty of decent '62-'65 Fairlanes/Meteors still out there. Even a mildy built 390/428 with the log/flat exhaust manifolds & C-6 & easily installed '57 - '59 9" would be a nice sleeper to blow away a rare 271 horse K code.
I would strongly consider stiffening the unibody up with subframe connectors. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | I have a dumb question... -- Barry B, 02/19/2003
If it fits tight with the log manifolds, wouldn't it fit better with the Fairlane manifolds? |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: me too... -- Mike McQ, 02/19/2003
I was thinking the same thing Barry. Although with the extremely tight confines of the pre '66 Fairlane there might be interference with the firewall?
I did have to tweak the trans tunnel/floor pan on my '64 with a 351W/C-6 combination. The small block C6 had the external convertor housing ribs that interfered. Some careful massaging with a sledge hammer did the trick.
But still.....unibody exhaust manifolds are bad but not as bad as the old logs. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: me too... -- Jay, 02/19/2003
So, I guess it can be done. But only with the OLD square type exhaust manifolds, Right? Now, how restrictive to the exhaust flow are these manifolds? I thinking they hold the power down since the exhaust can breathe freely. Someone let me know. Also, isn't there a C-4 tranny that will fit an FE instead of modifying the firewall or anything else? Last question. If an FE can fit, what about a 460 Lincoln engine?
Thanx... |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: FE w/C4 -- McQ, 02/19/2003
There never was a factory FE engine with a factory C4. There's lots of great myths that have been put forth over the years. My favorite was the Canadian Mail delivery vans......those Canadians had all the good stuff like Canadian CJ heads and C4s behind FEs. Seriously there's no such thing as a factory C4 behind an FE. A cruisomatic/FMX looks a little like a C4 because it has a seperate bell/convertor housing. But a little closer glance and no it's not a C4 it's a mighty Cruiso!
However there is a transmission building company that is producing an adaptor to allow for a C4 to FE. I can't remember which one right now but I might have it if I check around enough. Search FE/C4 and you'll probably find it. I do remember it's not an inexpensive item.
And someone on this forum has indicated that adapting a C4 to a cruiso convertor housing should be doable. Good luck.
But you're right that a C4 would be a much nicer fit than a C6. How about a Lentech AOD? That'd be real nice with 4.11s. Kind of make up for those log/box exhaust manifolds, speaking of which...
Yes they're very restrictive but they're functional for an all around driver little Fairlane with a 390/428. If you're thinking you have to have headers then you better consider buying Charles Crites' T-bolt convervion kit or just spend a couple-o-grand replacing the entire fron suspension of the Fairlane/Meteor with a Pinto/'stang II/Bobcat system.
I just have to say that I trust Travis Miller a lot. I've learned a lot from his numerous informative posts to this forum. But before I'd go crazy on a project like this I'd want to do some serious measuring/checking and mocking this possible installation up. I just can't get that scene I personally saw of the FE & box/log exhaust manifolds doing the bump with the shock towers of a '66 Cyclone GT. Not a pretty dance to see. But then again the upper control arms/shock towers on a '62 - '65 Fairlane are totally different.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: FE w/C4 -- Jay, 02/20/2003
Thanx Q for the info. Really do appreciate it. My concern was the functionality of the exhaust. As long as they are functional, I guess it may be a good deal. But I do agree that very precise measurements and checking need to be done.
On another note. If we have concluded that an FE engine can/may fit a '62-'65 'Lane with the right exhaust manifolds, what about a Windsor 351? I know the issue with the 351 are the heads. But an FE is much wider than a 351W. Do we know of anyone that has done a 351 w/o cutting the towers?
Please forgive my questioning. I am tossing ideas around so I can develop a Game Plan for when I acquire a '64, which is what I'm looking for.
I really do appreciate all the info... |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: FE w/C4 -- DennyR, 02/20/2003
I installed a 351w in a '64 back in 1975 and don't recall anything being too tight other than beating the towers in on a couple of places where the header tubes were touching and you really couldn't tell it. I was using 289 headers. I would bet with the swap headers out there today designed for the 351 you wouldn't have to modify the towers at all. JMO Denny |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: FE w/C4 -- Jay, 02/21/2003
Thanx, Denny. You're probably right. Many people have done this swap and there are headers out there just for this application, now that I remember. |
| | | | | | | | RE: FE in a 64 Fairlane -- Jay, 02/13/2003
Travis, can you or someone verify this info on the box exhaust on a 390 for a '64 fairlane? I'm looking for a '64 fairlane and would seriously consider doing this. I just wonder:
-Can it be done w/o altering the towers, and -What else needs to be done or changed aside from the exhaust manifolds? |
| | | | | | | | | trade car for car -- federico, 02/20/2003
i have a 68 r code that i would trade (needs resto) for a 2 door SEDAN not hardtop "K" code not "C" code. |
| | | | | | | | | | RE: trade car for car -- federico, 02/20/2003
that was a 68 R code Fastback Mustang rust free not tubbed. |
| | | | | | | | | | | RE: trade car for car -- Jay, 02/21/2003
that's a nice car to make a Bullit out of. But my heart's desire is to acquire a '64 "Lane. Thanx anyway.. |
| | | | | | | RE: Note that he didn't publish the serial number n/m -- federico, 02/20/2003
any and every thunderbolt came with a K in the 5th digit in the vin. that way it would ensure the 9 inch rear end and other heavy duty components. so the vin number means everything |
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