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 |  460 compression -- bill, 03/24/2003
i just bought a 1972 lincoln 460-c6.books tell me the 1971 460 has 10.5 comp. & the72 460 has 8.5 comp the date code on the body is may1971 is it possible to have a 71 eng with the higher comp? how can you tell ? |
 | 67mustang motor -- carlos, 03/24/2003
I recently built a ford 390 motor and installed chrome moly piston rings. The motor has about 650 miles on it. The problem is that three of the cylinders haven't completed seated. I asked around and some say that these types of rings require 1000 miles or more to finish breaking in, some say they should have broken in after the first 30 minutes. I just want an answere, do i need to tear down the motor and install new rings or continue to wait. Help is appreciated. |
| | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 03/24/2003
A few questions Carlos. What was done to the block or more specifically to the cylinder bores when you rebuilt it? Where the rings properly orientated
to each piston when they were installed on
the pistons? How do you know they've not
seated -- what is telling you they've not seated? |
| |  | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 03/25/2003
The block was given a complete run through at a local machine shop.The shop honed the block for chrome moly rings,putting the proper cross hatch pattern on the cylinders. I installed the rings on the pistons myself, the dot on all rings were on the top letting you know that they were installed correctly, knowone could get that wrong. I know not all rings have seated because after driving the car around town, i pull the front four plugs and the threads are completly dry. The threads on the rear four sparkplugs however are wet with oil, some very wet. I say oil and not gas because after returning home and checking the oil dipstick, the reading has dropped 1/4 to 1/2 of full, not to mention that it smokes out the exhaust which really pisses me off. I see much older and really messed up vehicles that don't show one puff. I checked cylinder compression and all are at 130 lbs except for one which is 125 lbs. Please help. |
| | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 03/25/2003
Carlos, did you position the rings on the pistons with the end gaps spaced apart properly? Did you set the proper end gaps? Also, since you have good compression,
there is a possibility you are sucking the
oil past a valve guide. Did you do any work to
the guides? What kind of valve guide seals did
you use -- did you have to machine the heads
to fit the seals? Maybe check the seals on the
cylinders that are leaking oil first before tearing it down again. As a far out posibility, I
once rebuilt a Ford 6 cyl. and used the original
pistons. Engine did similar thing. Turned out 1 piston was ''colapsed'' (out of round) Put in a new piston and problem went away. I know you don't want to hear that though. Just some
ideas -- hoping to help. |
| | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 03/26/2003
You know, it's hard to remember each piston as i installed them. It's been so long since i did all this work that i can't be 100% sure about the end gap positions. I am about 90% sure,but not positive.I purchased a new set of rings that were for my motor, 390 bored 40 over. I honestly didn't check the end gaps in their cylinders, i know i should have but what can i do now.I'm assuming that they are correct.I took the heads in to another machine shop and they did a complete valve job, soup to nuts.As far as the pistons being callapsed, the rebuild kit i purchased for my motor came with a new set of pistons.My guess as well as my hopes are that the problem might lie in the valve seals. Here is some insight that might help you help me. The rear drivers side sparkplug is the plug that is the most wet, however the driver side exhaust smokes much much less than the passenger side, which plugs aren't nearly as wet but wet none the less.This side smokes a lot. Can you figure that out, does that support my guess as to the valve seals. Speaking of valve seals and guides, how can one check them out if my heads have two to three springs on them, i can't see anywhere inside there to check. PLEASE HELP!! |
| | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 03/26/2003
There is a non-scientific wayof testing. Usually
if rings are leaking, then you'll likely see more smoke on acceleration. If guides/seals leak then you'll get more smoke on deceleration.
Have someone stand behind your car & watch for smoke when you take off floored. Hold it in
gear and take it up to 3000-4000 rpm floored
then take foot off pedal. Wait a couple of seconds and floor it again. If it smokes more on acceleration - likely rings. If it puts out a poof of smoke when you floor it, wait, and floor it again - likely guides/seals. (When you lift the pedal at higher rpm you create high vacuum in the cylinders which will suck oil past
the guide/seal if they are leaking creating a poof of smoke.) If it pours out smoke when you floor it I suspect a ring problem. Maybe someone else has other ideas how to check the guides but this has worked for me. This is
a fairly severe but good test of guides/seals. I
always do this test when buying a used car. Hope this helps or flags an idea in someone
else's mind what else you can check or test. Unless your rings are faulty,to be doing what you engine is doing tells me
you must have a visible mechanical mistake,
(obvious to the eye) but you may not find it til
you open it up again. I feel for you bud!
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| | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 03/28/2003
Well sh@*#t, i'm just gonna bite the bullit and take my car in to have a leak down test done to determine once and for all what exactly is wrong. Don't know if it will help but i have more information. At a traffic light, car smokes, once i accelerate to leave it smokes for a quick second then goes away until the next time i come to a stop. I don't know if it's smoking while flooring it because i just can't see the exhaust, i'm just guessing that it's not. I have idled the car in the driveway at 2500 to 3000 rpm for about a half hour and after a few minutes, i observe the exhaust pipes and there is little to no smoke until i return the car to an idle again and then the smoke comes back, sometimes less, sometimes even more.Oh, bye the way, i readjusted the valves and warmed the car up the next day at about 3:30pm, and the car really began to smoke, worse than it used to when i would first start it. what's up with that!! I appreciate all your help. |
| | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 03/28/2003
Based on what you've described, it sounds like
you have a guide/seal problem. At idle, and after lifting pedal after accelerating you get vacuum sucking oil past the guide seal. That is
because vacuum builds when the throttle plate
in the carb is closed. When you step on it you
are burning the oil by combustion so it looks like it is smoking less. Try the boot it, let off,
boot it test I spoke of in previous thread. You
likely will see a big cloud of smoke when you
step on it the second time. Wait a couple of seconds after letting off before stepping on it the second time so the motor has time to suck
more oil into the cylinders and I am guessing
you will get the smoke cloud. Also when the car sits for a while after being shut off oil will run down the guide and make it smoke more when it is first started. (very common on 1979-1986 bowtie trucks) Sure sounds like valve guide/seal problem to me! Let us know what you find. |
| | | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 04/04/2003
Hey dude, it's me again. Well i think i've had enough with this continual problem. I took my car to a shop to do the leak down test and i really feel that they did'nt even do it. When i picked the car up, the mechanic told me that the problem was the rings. He proved this to me by showing me the black carbon buildup from the inside of the mufflers. I asked if he had done the leak down test and what he found from that, and he said he didn't find anything, but that it was the rings on the drivers side of motor. If in fact he had done the test, i believe he should have been able to not only tell me if the problem was the valves or the rings, but which valves and or rings were bad, correct! I called one of my tech sources to get a final word before i began my disassembly and they said to take the car out on a empty road and leave the car in first gear, bring the RPM's to 5000 and let it come back down on its own. They said to do this six times. With pleasure i did it ten times and i rechecked the compression and it had gone down rather than up on two of the cylinders. The sparkplugs were dry but the compression sucked, so i did it again. The second time around the compression got better from 110psi to 125psi. I'm still not satisfied with it seeming to get better because the next day i started it up and just like before, the same three plugs on the same cylinders were wet with oil and it still smoked like crazy in park. I have made my decision to tear motor down, rehone block, replace rings with file-to-fit cast or plasma moly type rings, new rod bearings,do some port work on intake, port and polish heads. I don't know if i should put a HV oil pump, the new pump i have works well, but i hear many people use them. I have a 7 qrt deep sump pan, but i'm afraid the HV pump will cause more problems like filling the valvecovers with too much oil and cause other problems, what do you think, stay with new stock pump, or go to HV. By the way is my compression in normal range (130psi). The cam profile is int/exh @ .50 214/224 sae duration 292/302, cam lift 295/310, valve lift 510/536, lobe center 107/117. what do you think of the cam i'm using, is there an better one you know of for both torque and hp? Thanks really for all your help, i appreciate it very much.
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| | | | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 04/04/2003
Carlos, because your getting oil in the cylinders after sitting overnight, I would still be
looking for too large guide clearance or bad valve seal. Also I have read on this forum of
too much oil up top causing this problem for some engines. Since you probably have new bearings down below and if you did not put any oil restriction plugs up top, maybe, just maybe, you are moving lots of oil into the valve cover. I'm just doing a 390 GT and just
read on these forum pages to be careful of high volume pumps that may cause this. I'm
think I'll be going with stock type oil pump. If I
was you I'd take er for run, then quickly pull
a valve cover and check for a large amount of oil up top. I have also heard of cutting an old
valve cover in half length-wise, or cutting a section out of the top half and installing on motor then starting it up to watch how much
oil comes up top. (Careful you can be sprayed
with hot oil) Just some suggestions to try. Your
cam sounds like its working good to me. Hows
the idle sound - smooth or lumpy. Hows it respond when you walk on it? What axle ratio
you runnin. I can't speak to better cam choice
as I'm still debating myself. Currently running
Cobra Jet specs cam (.482) lift but I feel I need more cam as mine feels like its runnin
out of breath after 4500. Hope this helps -- keep us posted. |
| | | | | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 04/05/2003
Hey Gary, i appreciate all your help so far. I discovered good and bad news. The good news is that when i was seconds away from starting to tear down the motor, i took it out one last time to see if any promising changes would result from it. I returned to check compression and it was much better, the lowest reading is 120psi and the highest is 135psi. So dropping the hammer must have helped. The bad news is as i was adjusting some noisy valves, i noticed that the valve seal on the first valve was pushed up all the way to the top when it should have been seated down at the bottom. Further inspection revealed that most all were same way. I only checked one side of motor, but i assume both sides are probably the same. I also believe that i am getting a lot of oil up top just like you mentioned, you were right Gary. The best news is that i have a new avenue to attack and don't need to tear motor apart just yet. I pushed the seals back down i felt all the way and started motor, after a while i checked the seals and they were up at top of valves again. So my new question is how do i fix this problem of valve seals (umbrella type) not staying where they should and also too much oil up top. |
| | | | | | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 04/08/2003
Carlos, from what I understand, it is normal
for the ''umbrella'' type seals to stay near the
top. They keep the oil off the guide by doing what their name implies -- shed oil over and
around the guide like an umbrella. Not real
positive seal, I know. So if you have big clearance on your guide to valve stem - you may still suck oil past the guide. As to limiting
oil to top end check this sites search button for
oil restrictors -- as I'm sorry but I do not know
this information first hand. I do believe you restrict the oil to the top with plugs with certain
size hole drilled into them to cut down on quantity of oil getting pumped up to valve cover. Hope this helps! Good Luck! |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | RE: 67mustang motor -- carlos, 04/09/2003
Thanks for the info Gary, i am getting ready to pull the motor and change the rings, plus some extra work. I expect to find that the rings are bad, i hope, and plan to do some port matching on intake to heads and heads to headers. Question, do you believe doing the port matching will give noticeable results, and what if any work should i have done to the heads, maybe some port and polishing? I don't want to spend money and not get my moneys worh, what do you think? |
| | | | | | | | | | | | |  | RE: 67mustang motor -- Gary Adam, 04/09/2003
Carlos, -- port matching is always a good idea
when it comes to better performance (as in better flow).A really bad port match opened up
to good port match would help - but I'm not so
sure you would actually feel it in the seat of your pants. But couple that with a good porting
job and you'd definitely feel it. More in the higher rpm range than down low. But I have
not done any porting to these heads, so check
the search button for any info in that regard. I
do know these head need all the help they can
get and respond well when done right. Also check about larger valves. I'm going to go with
the Edelbrock heads myself -- bigger valves,
good ports, alot lighter in weight, better heat
dissipation, etc. Some say a prof. port job with
bigger valves will run you close to the same or
maybe even more money than Edel heads do.
So be check out costs carefully. Good luck! |
| | Chro-moly rings seem especially sensitive to hone-pattern. [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| | RE: 67mustang motor -- Paul, 02/22/2004
I would pull one or both valve covers and start it up. You may be surprised at how much oil is pooling up top and running down your valve stems. A little bit of rocker clearance or good oil pressure can cause quite a bit of oil to go up top. You may just need a simple oil restrictor on each side to solve your smoking problem. |
| | | RE: 67mustang motor -- raycfe, 02/22/2004
Paul has the right idea, Also chrome rings take a long time to seatin. Maybe some more checking and miles under a MEDIUM load will help. Also how did you fix your electrial problem? |
| | RE: 67mustang motor -- giacamo, 02/22/2004
crome rings hoo talked you in to installing crome rings thay need thear ass kicked molly plaz is the way to go. but now you have crome just keep runing it thay will seat some day.i found just power brake the engin and check for blowby if your valve cavers puff and the plugs are wet it,s the rings.exaust guides just make it smoke but the plugs ar clean .i run hv pumps in all my rebilds never have any problems..... |
| | | RE: 67mustang motor -- dave, 02/24/2004
Been there done that have extra T-Shirt in extra large...heres the pop......my "RE-DONE" heads with knurled guides along with total valve stem travel that exceeded depth of umbrella seal resulted in the valve guide NEVER being covered and the healthy re-built engine sucking down oil thru the guide. You can bring the piston to TDC pressurize the cylinder with air and compress the valve spring with proper tool if you really want to inspect the umbrella seals. I pulled the heads screamed at the shop that charged me top dollar for average work, had him re-place the guides with new and cut the heads for positive stem seals. Also its worth it to do the cut out valve cover check mentioned above, I had to re-shape the spouts on the deflectors on my 428 and that solved my wet plug thread problem. I will be happy to loan my cut out valve cover to you. OK I will go back to lurking now |
| Pro-Stock-Engineering -- Mitch, 03/22/2003
Does anybody know where I can get some information about the company Pro-Stock-Engineering? They used to have a web page but it doesn't seem to work anymore. |
 | '61-'63 Tbird FPA Headers Update...in production!! -- ValveTubeHead, 03/22/2003
Message from stan last night
T-Bird headers go into production next week! We are taking orders now. $475 in nickel chrome, $650 in ceramic + $35 shipping.
Stan
F.P.A. 253 848-9503
http://www.fordpowertrain.com/opening.htm
woohoo!
ValveTubeHead
'65 Mustang 2+2
'61 Thunderbird HT |
| 428 CJ Intake Manifold -- Gary, 03/21/2003
What is the best way to remove the oil splash shield from underside of manifold (by drilling or grinding heads off fasteners) and are these style rivets still available? |
| | RE: 428 CJ Intake Manifold -- Charlie, 03/21/2003
Why are you trying to remove the shield?
Charlie |
| | | RE: 428 CJ Intake Manifold -- Gary, 03/22/2003
Only reason for wanting to remove is for hot tanking and then having it bead blasted. There is slight rust on underside from storage. I'm not sure if the caustic solution would damage shield. Maybe a bad idea or not worth the trouble? Shield and rivets are in perfect condition. Any thoughts? Thanks for any input. |
| | They are threaded rivets. -- Paul M, 03/22/2003
Use a hammer and chisel to turn them out counter-clockwise. Don't know if they are still available, but it would probably be easier in the long run to tap the bores for bolts. |
| | | If you tap and use bolts..... -- pop428, 03/23/2003
I'd make sure you use lock tight glue on the bolts,
I wouldn't want those bolts vibrating loose and floating around my engine....:( |
| | I just use a narrow, thin screwdriver as a mini 'pry-bar.' [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| spark plug wire routing -- Gary Adam, 03/21/2003
Have heard of possible problem of ignition
spark ''crossover'' from one wire to another
causing pre-ignition on FE engines. Is this true
and which wires do I have to be careful of.
What is best way to route to prevent this
problem or any other trick to prevent this? I
do not have the book, but I've heard this is
spoken of in one of the big block rebuild
books out there. Thanks very much in advance
for any information on this subject. (68 Cougar
XR-7 390 GT engine, C-6) |
| | Crossfire -- Royce Peterson, 03/21/2003
I think this is one of those things that gets more press than it deserves.
There is a Ford Tech Service Bulletin from the 1960's that says if the customer is complaining of misfire at idle to seperate the #7 and #8 plug wires to see if it is an inductive cross fire caused by #8 plug picking up stray electro motive force from the nearby #7 wire which fires a few degrees earlier.
With a set of modern high performance plug wires it should not be a concern. If you are having problems with misfire by all means check it out by moving the #8 wire away from the others.
Royce |
| 460 to a 63 cruseomatic ? -- bill, 03/21/2003
is it possible to mate a 460 to a cruseomatic trans out of a 63 xl. or must i put a 460 with its own c6 in the galaxie. i know a 460 isnt a fe but i would appreciate some help thanks bill |
| | RE: 460 to a 63 cruseomatic ? -- hawkrod, 03/22/2003
yeah you can do it. don't know why you would want to but use a bellhousing from a mid 70's 351M FMX midsize lite an elite LTD Tbird etc... you have about a 1 in 3 chance of finding one because these cars came with C4's FMX's and C6's all behind the same engines! hawkrod |
| Engine ID -- Terry, 03/21/2003
Hi All,
I know this has been asked a bunch of times but can you tell my how to Id the displacement of the FE. And if it's buy casting #'s were can I find a list. Next Question,if the cruise-O-matic is used behind the FE in 64 what trans was used behind the 289?
Thanks Terry. |
| | No way -- Royce Peterson, 03/21/2003
With few exceptions there is no way to identify an FE block regarding displacement by using a casting number.
The transmission question might be better answered on the general forum:
http://fomoco.com/mustang-forum/ |
| | | RE: 289 automatic would be a C4, but read this rel -- Terry, 03/21/2003
I kind of thought is was a C 4 but I wan't sure that ford had it in 63-64.someone had said it was a Ford-O-Matic but I don't think ford ever put one behind a small block.Didn't they quite using the F-O-M in 58? |
| | | | Fordomatic -- Royce Peterson, 03/23/2003
Ford continued to install the 2 speed Fordomatic behind the 221 and 260 through 1964 model year, possibly other engines.
Royce |
| | | | | RE: Fordomatic -- Terry, 03/24/2003
Thanks Royce,I guess they must have used it behind the 6 cylinder as well then.Another Question,I always thought that the Ford-O-Matic was a 3 speed and that at normal take off in the Drive position it started in 2nd,but if you started in low you could manually shift the lever up too drive then back too low and get 2nd gear the back too drive and get high,seems I remember this from days gone buy.
Terry. |
| | | | | | A Fordomatic by any other name.... -- Royce Peterson, 03/24/2003
I believe there were different versions of the Fordomatic. I have owned several 63-64 Falcon sprints with 260 and Fordomatic. Those are two speeds. Don't know about the others but suspect a six cylinder would be no fancier than a 260.
Royce |
| | | | | | | RE: A Fordomatic by any other name.... -- Terry, 03/24/2003
Royce, after talking with some guys at the Y-Block Site, they say that the Ford-O-Matic used in the 55 too 57 Fords could be manually shifted and were in fact three spds,but when the 225 and 260 came along the trans was changed as you pointed out too a 2 spd a little diffrent version then the early ones.Thanks again for your help.
Terry. |
| | | | | | In '60, Ford sold both 2- and 3-spd. Ford-O-Matics. [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| | | | | | 1961-64 Ford-O-Matics are all 2-speeds. [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| | | | | | | RE: 1961-64 Ford-O-Matics are all 2-speeds. [n/m] -- Jim, 05/08/2004
Do you know what type of fluid to use in a
1964 Ford Falcon with a Ford-O-Matic 2-speed.
AutoZone says type F, but the manual says
M2C33-C or D or type A
Jim |
| | | | C4 appeared in '64. Please note revised response, above. [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| | | | Sorry - sometimes I get Mustang on the brain. :-) [n/m] -- Mr F, 03/24/2003
n/m |
| | | | | RE: Sorry - sometimes I get Mustang on the brain. -- Terry, 03/24/2003
Mr F
thanks for the info I'm sure now what I have here is a C 4 and not the 2 spd version of the Ford-O-Matic,after talking with the Y-Block guys.
Thanks again Terry. |
| FE alum intake -- Mike, 03/19/2003
Could someone tell me what eng this alum intake came off of? C3AE-9424-E
It has an oval fomoco logo and 3C1
What would this alum intake do for a
S code 390 ? As good as a P.I. ?
Thanks, mike
|
| Odd heads -- dave, 03/19/2003
OK I have one more question and the Steve Christ book info does not apply...I have a set of C6TE-G heads, casting dates two weeks apart........one head has the extra bosses for the diag bolt pattern, the intake port size is identical to the CJ heads I have on the shelf and the bolt pattern and exhust port location is also the same. The other head (Earlier date)does not have the extra bosses cast into it. port dimensions the same except the exhaust port lip was higher which I now know is the AR lip (thanks forum) on the later head. I have been looking for another C6TE-G with the extra bosses and have NEVER seen one on e-bay, the web ,or at any swap meet and I have been looking for two years. Any info would be appreciated. OH and they are not truck heads that would be FT.....right? Thanks Dave |
| | Early Thermactor heads -- Royce Peterson, 03/19/2003
The C6TE-G heads came on California emissions equipped Fords and Mercury's in 1966. They also seem to have been used on Fords shipped to other locations, when living in Texas I found them on '66 Galaxies and XL's with 352 and 390 engines but they were sometimes not drilled for Thermactor. Other times they were drilled for Thermactor. A very common FE head. Steve Christ's book is terrible when it comes to casting information.
They also show up on 352 equipped 1966 Ford pickup trucks.
Royce |
| | | RE: Early Thermactor heads -- dave, 03/19/2003
Thanks Royce, I have yet to find any for sale and I have seen virtually all others but the C6te-G offered for sale at one time or another....got a spare with the the GT bolt pattern.....and of course while I'm wishing pleaSE MAKE IT CHEAP AS WELL! Thanks Dave |
| | | | C6te-g -- Royce Peterson, 03/19/2003
I had one that only had eight bolt capability. I threw it in the dumpster at work about a year ago.
I could see little or no difference between the C6TE-G and the C6AE-R heads.
Royce |
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