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![Collapse <a href=../ForumFE/reply.aspx?ID=3674&Reply=3674><img src=../images/reply.png width=30 height=10></a> <b>Other people on other Forums</b> -- <font color=#0000ff>427galaxie, <i>12/18/2000</i></font><br /><blockquote>[title edited & msg. deleted by Mr F] </blockquote>](/WebResource.axd?d=lIhYVYeLZitD6XlgNHhEdwcr2vZcMlGUo2kIr_fptQ_l8X6kW0xpEmGZbgupcOlreYQ8zTVqPQHktX2MtfGPIB3Emptk5O-RquRCtwpcfVEA3-gQTqy1gbDQ_ovVDlSv0&t=637814653746327080) |  Other people on other Forums -- 427galaxie, 12/18/2000
[title edited & msg. deleted by Mr F] |
|  | Welcome Steve -- T1M, 12/18/2000
I consider myself still new here. I don't post often because I'm a novice to cars altogether and learning the basics right now. Everyone here is pretty easy-going and very knowledgable.
What kind of car do you have btw? |
| |  | RE: Welcome Steve -- 427galaxie, 12/18/2000
I have a 61 T-Bird, a 63 Galaxie, 66 comet, and 71 chevy truck, and a 74 mercedes 280c. I am interested in lots of different cars. |
| ![Collapse <a href=../ForumFE/reply.aspx?ID=3683&Reply=3674><img src=../images/reply.png width=30 height=10></a> <b>Welcome, but leave the personal attacks outside, Ok? [n/m]</b> -- <font color=#0000ff>Mr F, <i>12/18/2000</i></font><br /><blockquote>n/m </blockquote>](/WebResource.axd?d=5j1V7IJBhc-qdmzmrXlobq0gFNxbOjgd7TeV-LysSEekJ7Gmtc2x9RMYHtS9EW5yU7wHEIWgz1wWu2IMG322RtthXdkInI49gjJzA4laYxsFhGCZI8wW_xoN6HxVXe4-0&t=637814653746327080) | Welcome, but leave the personal attacks outside, Ok? [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/18/2000
n/m |
| | | RE: Welcome, but leave the personal attacks outside, Ok? [n/m] -- 427galaxie, 12/20/2000
No Problem, can you tell me the IP adresses of the people who respond as 427galaxie or Melanie? I have been a victim of shenanighans that were not me, that used my names. I pissed off a few FE lovers with normal, mild dissent toward FE's. They tried to kick me off of their site but they can't find the admin guy. I touted Stanley Superior's serious posts on that site, that also cast doubt on Fe's. If a 427Galaxie or Melanie post comes in, not from 24.16.60.76, it is not me and should be discarded. Can you even do that? |
| | | | Click here - 'reply' page shows sender's IP [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/20/2000
n/m |
| FE heads...a perspective -- Ed Foral, 12/17/2000
Quick and dirty, I have a few flow #'s for comparison sake.
It was stated recently that ~35 year old ported factory iron MR heads flowed "only" 216CFM@500 lift on the exhaust side. Compare and judge.
Unported Ford MR 190CFM@.500
Unported Edelbrock FE #6006 190CFM@.500
Ported D0VE-C 174CFM@.500
Unported Victor JR Windsor 180CFM@.500
Ported 351C 2V heads w/1.71 valve 200CFM@.500
The best numbers I could find for 429CJ iron heads are
207@.800 lift,
There was one for 140@.600 also
Aluminum FRPP CJ heads, I found 262@.600
254@.800
Dove Std HR heads 222@.600
Dove Spl HR heads 250@.600
Dove Spl HR heads ported 300@.700
These may not be peak flows for all of these heads, but if you are only using a cam with .500 lift, what does lift at .800 matter?
Not many street/strip cars have cams over .600 lift?
I don't think that anything looks as cool as an FE. Anyone who is willing to spend the necessary money to build one can easily make a potent package. I don't think that anyone would think that they can take a set of C6AE-U or C8AE-H heads and go take on the world, but with carefully selected parts, a winning combination can be made.
Ed |
|  | RE: FE heads...a perspective -- Stanley Superior, 12/18/2000
Im assuming these are figures for the intake side(?) We were talking about the exauhst side earlier. It sure takes a long time to test all the different heads out there! |
| | Very interesting, Ed. Mind citing references for those? [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/18/2000
n/m |
| | | References -- Ed Foral, 12/18/2000
I hope this image posts, it may be too large |
| | References pt.2 -- Ed Foral, 12/18/2000
That didn't work perfect. The following are all exhaust port flows. MM=Mustang Monthly..........SF=Super Ford
Unported Ford MR 190CFM@.500 -------------------------MM3/96
Unported Edelbrock FE #6006 190CFM@.500---------MM3/96
Ported D0VE-C 174CFM@.500------------------------------SF3/95
Unported Victor JR Windsor 180CFM@.500FORDMUSCLE.COM
Ported 351C 2V heads w/1.71 valve 200CFM@.500 ----------------------------Powerheads Fullerton CA
The best numbers I could find for 429CJ iron heads are
207@.800 lift-----------------------------SuperFord1/95
There was one for 140@.600 also------SuperFord 3/92
Aluminum FRPP CJ heads, I found 262@.600
254@.800 SF 3/92 & 1/95
Dove Literature/Catalog:
Dove Std HR heads 222@.600
Dove Spl HR heads 250@.600
Dove Spl HR heads ported 300@.700
|
| | | RE: References pt.2 -- oil sludged soul, 12/18/2000
Great leapen lizards Guys......I finally just get my side-oiler together,sorted and running (have med riser heads installed) and now you made me a FE hypochondriac. OH the irony of it all!....After spending months getting the beast to the place where I have to reinsert my eyeballs after an acceleration run (after finding them in back of my empty head), now you have me wondering if I could of done anything different. Lord have mercy on my oil sludged soul!! But alas..it will be a day when Mr.F has a Chevy parked in his garage before I tear into that engine again. Humbly yours......Very broke-but happy. |
| | | | RE: References pt.2 -- oil sludged soul (Special Thanks), 12/18/2000
P.S. I also just wanted to say thanks to all of you guys out there who take the time and effort in helping out guys like me who have benefitted from your advice and help. Have a great Christmas and keep those big ponies running. |
| fe head question? -- steve, 12/17/2000
would any one of you fine folks out there know if the C7AE-A
and the C6AE-R heads are the same,meaning valve size,chamber size port design etc? i have both sets and was told the -r was abetter performing head.any clarification would be appreciated.thanks in advance.steve.... |
| | FE head answer -- Ed Foral, 12/17/2000
The C6AE-R retained the early exhaust port contours, and the taller intake port height. The C7AE-A heads have the shorter intake ports and the revised exhaust port. They both have the small intake and exhaust valves.
I would personally start with the C6AE-R heads and drop a set of CJ valves in. With a little blending and porting, you have a set of heads which will do as well or better as an untouched set of CJ heads.
Ed |
| Heres one for the numbers buffs! -- Stanley Superior, 12/17/2000
I have in my pile of cores,a 428 motor. I tore it down and ID'd all the parts. The block,however,does not have the usual numbers behind the starter. It had "66-427" cast into the rear,a big "C" on the rear as well. Its got the boss for the pressure relief cast into the rear,but its unmachined. The casting date is Jan.12,1971. It does not have the ribs on the outside of the block. Bore size is standard 4.130,and the pistons were TRW forged units. The heads were standard non-CJ type,and it had a cast iron 2BBL intake manifold on it. When I pulled it apart,it had stock type fomoco gaskets on it (the imprint is still visible on the block deck and head surface),leading me to beleive that it was assembled this way from Ford,or it was some kind of top end swap at a Ford dealership (?) The motor is all standard,but who knows what it came out of. |
| FE cyl.head flow #'s -- Stanley Superior, 12/16/2000
Ive tested many cyl.heads and the exauhst ports are not that great. at 28",the C8 casting CJ 428 head (in unported form),only mustered a weak 165 CFM @ .500" lift. After porting,it jumped to 216 CFM with the same lift value. An engine this size should have had the port flowing 216 CFM to begin with,then able to improve upon it from there. A 427 MR head C5 casting was a little better,but not much. At the same lift,the MR head was showing only 188 CFM (due to the larger exauhst valve). After porting the MR head showed a jump to 232 CFM,better,but still not very good considering the displacement of the motor. Dove heads are much,much better on the ex. side. A typical BB Chevy head is already in the 240+ range in unported form. Fords have always suffered from poor exauhst flow,although they are better than Buick,Olds,and Pontiac heads. The BB Ford (385 series) heads have exauhst flow,thats in the 200+ range in unported form,but this is the 1968-1972 heads Im reffering to,not 73 and later (those heads have very clogged up ports because of the air injection bosses cast inside the port). The 427 FE heads are the better flowing heads of all the FE's,and all the "garden variety" FE's are suffering from the same thing as all other Fords,they're choked! |
| | RE: FE cyl.head flow #'s , SO -- RC Moser, 12/16/2000
So, my two FEs run just fine stock. I could care less how much they flow. So, thanks for nothing. |
| | | I believe Ed F. asked about his flow-bench results, earlier. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/17/2000
n/m |
| | Neat data, but isn't it old news that 427 ports are best? [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/17/2000
n/m |
| | Which head? -- Will, 12/17/2000
The question I'm pondering is which head I should run on my 428. It currently has stock Ebock heads, but I've also got a nice pair of CJ heads.
I've got something messed up in the #7 cylinder (crap on the #7 plug), so I need to pull it apart to check it out. I've been wondering if the Ebock heads are worth it. All the flow numbers show that they're not any better than CJ heads. I've been considering porting and rebuilding the CJ heads, so I can do the swap in a day.
I've heard all the bench racing (alum vs. iron, valve shrouding ,etc.) on the comparison, but I'm not sure how much HP that really means. If it's only a few HP either way, I'd rather run the CJ heads.
And yes, I'm a little surprised on the flow of FE heads. Most aftermarket 5.0 heads flow the same or more. If I were building a pure "for money" race car, I'd probably run a late model 5.0. My second choice would be a 68 CJ Mustang. The 5.0 would probably produce more wins per $, but the CJ is way higher on the coolness meter. Another thing that would be fun would be a Big Boss. I think I'll wait for my stocks to split a few times first though. |
| | | Incomplete data..... -- Hot Rod Lorenzen, 12/17/2000
What about High Riser, Tunnel Port and SOHC heads? Your FE data is incomplete. Don't put FE's out to pasture yet. Besides, port velocity is more important on the street than total flow. My Boss heads will outflow all of those mentioned above, but a saavy small port FE could easily beat a Boss across an intersection. Hot Rod Lorenzen |
| | | | RE: Incomplete data..... -- Stanley Superior, 12/17/2000
You do realize that we're talking about the exauhst side of the heads,right? All wedge head FE's have the same basic exauhst port,most flow differences come from different size exauhst valves. It dont really matter if the test is done on a HR or a TP head (they are very close in flow #'s),because the port shape is still the same. However,the real concern is the standard "garden variety" heads out there on 390's and 428's,they are very weak in terms of airflow capabilities. The majority of FE owners do not have 427's,or even 427 heads,they have standard non-performance castings. I like to see a Ford win races whenever I can,but if a Ford gets beat by a Chevy or Mopar or whatever,and its got an FE under the hood,then I can understand why it would get beat. |
| | | | | RE: Incomplete data. and not running heads up! -- RC Moser, 12/17/2000
The last time I was at the track the only one's that ran HEADS UP was PRO. I don't think a Windsor or a FE will be in that class EVER! SO, Wouldn't you think it boils down to CONSISENCY AND REACTION TIME. HANK HILLs Thunderbird COMPETES pretty good in OUTLAW with NO NOS OR SUPERCHARGERS Up against a three stage NOS 715 CU. IN RAT Monte Carlo, SUPERCHARGED MOPAR, and GUESS WHAT HE IS NOT RUNNING A WINDSOR. |
| | | | RE: Incomplete data..... -- Will, 12/17/2000
Sorry, I wasn't condemning the SOHC, TP, etc. I think their success speaks for themselves (like how the TP's whipped the Hemi's, but you never see people talk bad about the Hemi).
My point was that I expected FE's to post big numbers on flow benchs, but they're actually not much higher than aftermarket 5.0 heads. I guess that's proof that flow benchs are great tools, but the end result is what matters.
My comment about racing a 5.0 mostly has to do with parts availability and $$'s. I raced a 302 a long time ago, and I beat 454's, 440's, 350's, 327's, etc. The engine was great, but I had problems with blown head gaskets and spun bearings. The interesting thing is that I don't expect those problems from my 428. Hmmm, maybe the 428 would be cheaper in the long run. |
| | | Don't Lose Your Head -- Ed Foral, 12/17/2000
Will
If your Edelbrock heads are in good shape, then stick with them.
There are two issues here. One being real world performance, and the other being bench racing with head flow readings.
On the first issue, I have helped a friend with putting together a 390 with unported Edelbrock heads in a Falcon, and he is shifting not much over 5000RPM and running near 12.0 in the 1/4. Now I have been trying to convince him to shift at a little higher RPM to make more use of his cam, but he is shy of blowing his engine, because of his friend who can't get a Chevy 350 to hold together.
My point, is that the same combo with 428 cubes would be even more potent, and the Edelbrock heads are just fine.
When we move on to the second issue, I have to ask you where you are getting your flow bench specs for the Edelbrock FE heads and others, because what I have shows the Edelbrock #6006 heads out flowing factory MR heads from .100 to .600 lift.
When the comparison to Windsor heads is made, they outflow even Victor Jr's from .100 to .600 lift.
Also stock MR heads out flowed them up to .500, then the Vic Jr's creaping ahead on the intake side at .600 lift.
I can not comment much on stock 428CJ heads, because I have no flow data on them.
Dove shows their Canadian CJ heads flowing 330CFM@700 lift on the intake, and 210CFM@600 lift on the exhaust. If the Edelbrocks were opened up to .700, I would expect them to close the gap on the intake side, even if they do not out flow them. They flow comparable on the exhaust side to the 6006's.
I have never seen claims that a stock CJ head outflowed a stock MR head, so I would expect that an Edelbrock head would outflow a stock CJ head.
I have been compiling a spreadsheet with head comparisons with flow data, and the sources which I found the data. I am willing to E-Mail a copy to anyone, I just request that you E-Mail me first and ask for it, so that I am assured to have your correct address to send it to.
Ed |
| | | | RE: Don't Lose Your Head -- Will, 12/18/2000
The flow numbers are from memory mostly, so I'm sure I'm off a bit. What I remember is, stock Windsor heads stink. Most stock alum heads were in the 200's. Some stock alum heads made it to the 300's, but those were race heads. With porting, the numbers obviously went up, but the same should be true for any head.
Someone on the moderated forum had his CJ and Ed heads flowed. I've got all that in a spreadsheet. It was interesting that the Ed heads flowed almost exactly the same as the CJ heads. Now, I know the flowbench isn't the end-all. The head material may favor aluminum (or it may favor iron!). I also know the Ed heads have relocated valves and spark plugs, and they've got restricted oil to the rocker shafts.
What I'm mostly interested in is real-world power differences between CJ and Ed heads. I've got a set of both with the Ed heads currently on the car. It may not really matter which set I use since I plan on doing a mild port job on whichever set I use.
I would be interested in your flow spreadsheet. If you e-mail it, I'll reply with the small spreadsheet I did.
BTW, I wasn't slamming the FE for less than stellar flow numbers. I just expected higher numbers given the reputation of the 428CJ, 427, 406, etc.
One more thing. When I was in high school, I raced a 302. I'm not sure what rpm I shifted at. I ran a tach for a while, but it said I was shifting at 8,000. That's hard to believe, but I'm sure it was over 6,000. Yes, the tach was installed correctly. I've had my 428 up to 6,500 already with no worries of blowing it up. I knew several people that threw rods in Chevy 327's and 350's. The Dodge's had problems shearing lug studs. They'd be driving down the road and their back wheel would fall off. I had problems with blown head gaskets and spun bearings. The point is we all had mechanical problems. It sounds like the FE's biggest reliability problem is the rocker shafts, and that's easily fixed. The Chevys rarely won (when I was in high school), and when they broke, they broke rods. Now, everyone thinks the Chevys have the strongest engines. I guess we have NASCAR (and Ford's no racing edict) to thank. |
| Rat Killer! 66 fairlane! -- Craig, 12/16/2000
Anybody seen the RAT KILLER on Collectorcartraderonline.com.
Looks lile a good deal for 26K including trailer. Says it runs 5.70s in the eight. Has a 557 BBF. To view punch in 66 to 67 ford fairlane. I have no interest in this car thought somebody might want a ready made race car. It says is a 66, but to me looks like a 67 Front end. Maybe I'm wrong. I bet it's allready sold any way. Craig |
| Diesel OIL, need opinions -- Craig, 12/15/2000
I have a 66 Fairlane GT with a 390. The engine runs like a top, but have alot of miles on the orginal motor. I heard that SHELL Diesel oil has the best blend, anti-wear, corrosion properties, and exceeds all car manufacture warranty requirements, (course warranty don't apply in my case). I've been using QS 10W40 with no problems and change my oil religously. Has anybody used this oil and what are your opinions. I just stumbled onto this site. Thanks in advance to who respond. Craig. |
| | RE: Diesel OIL, need opinions -- gerry, 12/15/2000
You have nothing to gain by using a diesel motor oil, Craig. The chemical engineers who screw together these hydrocarbon chains and mix their additive packages do so with the intent of meeting very specific criteria. The diesel motor oil won't offer any reliability or longevity gains for you as their packages are designed to deal with byproducts of diesel combustion that don't exist in gasoline engines...particularly the soots and sulpher that need to be held in suspension or inhibited from contaminating the lubricating oil. Gasoline engines have additive packages that work for them and, sometimes, gasoline oils may be compatable for diesels. Neither of the oils are more duarable than the other, it's just that each is designed to do their thing in the engine platform they were designed to work in. |
| | Don't do it - check compr. & stick with 10W40 [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/16/2000
n/m |
| | | RE: Don't do it - check compr. & stick with 10W40 [n/m] -- Craig, 12/16/2000
Thanks, I was just curious. Hear a few buddies talk about it. I knew I wasn't going to be the genniepig. Thanks again for responding. Craig |
| | | | oil tech info -- mark, 12/19/2000
just FYI check www.mustangworks.com, in their tech
articles, drivetrain section, they've got a great
article not only comparing major brand oils but also
explaining tech & terms. Some surprising differences in
lubricating ability between some brands, especially
where ability to work in heat without breaking down is
concerned. Synthetics like Mobil 1 the best protection
for reasons they explain in article.
They do say that multi-grade ability comes from additives
and that 10W40 has more of those to make the "stretch" -
the more the less durable the oil - so that 10W40 is
not as durable an oil as 10W30, and they advise against
using it for that reason. |
| | | | | RE: oil tech info -- Craig M, 12/19/2000
Thanks Mark, I'll check it out. |
| fe -- bill, 12/15/2000
have an fe motor in a 1955 ford crown victoria.
don't know what cu.in.where do i find numbers?if i keep the fe i would like to make it into a 428. i was going to put a 351w in it but am now rethinkimg it. help & comments. |
| | RE: fe -- 427galaxie, 12/15/2000
Are you sure that's not a Y-block in there? If you were able to get an FE in that thing, you should keep it in there. Blow the Wind(sor). |
| | | RE: fe -- bill, 12/15/2000
the motor has been changed & it is definately a fe. do you know where to find numbers? |
| | 1st, look for the block ID - its behind the alternator. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/15/2000
n/m |
| 1968 Mustang GT coupe "S"code -- Stanley Superior, 12/14/2000
What should I do with this beast? Got it for $400 running. Maybe part it out and build another project? It has a nice 3.50 Traction Lok 9" rear end with staggered shock mounting (4 spd car). I am thinking of using the rear end for a 69 Camaro project car that will be Ford powered. |
| | RE: 1968 Mustang GT coupe "S"code -- Buzz-off, 12/14/2000
[deleted by Mr Fomoco] |
| | | Warning: "abusive posts" violate AOL's terms of service. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/14/2000
n/m |
| | How much are you looking for it? For the pieces? -- FE, 12/14/2000
The swap into a commaro is easy and frequently done to correct a well-known bow-tie weakness. The powerswap is an even better idea, as the GM iron is decidedly limp.
Let me know on the price(s).
Thanks |
| | | Stanley doesn't have an S code. -- Will, 12/14/2000
He's posted several hundred messages on various forums and frequently claims to have rare FE stuff that he's going to "melt down to make a Windsor" or something like that. This is another one of those attempts.
That's why "Buzz-off" posted his message. |
| | | | Thanks and I do understand....but its *still* inappropriate. [n/m] -- Mr F, 12/14/2000
n/m |
| | | | | I agree. n/m -- Will, 12/15/2000
n/m |
| | | RE: not sure what to do with it yet -- Stanley Superior, 12/14/2000
nm |
| | | | I have a sugestion!! -- Lou, 12/15/2000
Let me think now, what should SS do with has FE? |
| | | | | Curious.... -- Hot Rod Lorenzen, 12/15/2000
Stanley, what is up with that last name you have? I am not picking on you, just curious about if it is your real last name. Rodney "Hot Rod" Lorenzen |
| | | | | | RE: Yep,thats it! -- Stanley Superior, 12/16/2000
Thats my real last name! I know it sounds funny,Im just glad my last name isnt "Gore",lol! |
| | | | | | | RE: Yep,thats it! -- Sean Palmer, 12/18/2000
Your curious what to do with that 68 fastback S code eh? Well lets try this... Whatever you don't want out of it even if its the whole thing or minus the rear end send it to me. Seeing as I haven't been able to get a job in a while I would greatly appreciate a free car. Just pass it along or send the 390 whatevers clever. I can find things to do with it.
Sean |
| | | | | | | | RE: Yep,thats it! -- Stanley Superior, 12/18/2000
It was a coupe,not a fastback. I have already striped it down to a shell and the engine is in the core pile behind the shop. I have already sold some parts off it,but the body of the car is going to the scrap yard. Whats a tilt steering wheel colum worth for a Mustang? What about the hood? its the kind thats got the reverse scoops with turn signals in them. |
| | | | | | | | | RE: Yep,thats it! -- Sean Palmer, 12/18/2000
Who cares what they are worth send them to me. Anything that is worth it send my way |
| EDL Streetmaster 390 -- Danny, 12/14/2000
is a Edl streetmaster 390 a good intake for low to mid range ,or is more of a high rpm intake? |
|