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| 428: Could it be original? Please help. -- Chad, 10/16/2004
I have had this engine for a long time and still dont know if this was the original build: Block: C5AE 4.13 bore ( .225 water jacket between bore casting. Crank: 1U(428) Cam : upsidedown A U(390GT 428) Rods: C-6AE-C Heads:C-6AE-R with 14 bolt exhaust pattern Intake: "S" C6AE 9426 G
Is this a 66 390 GT bored to 428 (close bore castings, .225,) would appear to say no. Is this an early 66 428 std which got the "390GT" heads and intake at the factory.Could this have happened when they were just bringing the 428 into production in 66?
I was hoping you FE identification wizards could help.Thanks alot. |
| | RE: 428: Could it be original? Please help. -- giacamo, 10/16/2004
i pulled a 428 out of a 66 murader that had every thing you list but the cam and it had the vert exaust. but was driled for the unibody 14 bolt exaust to, i belive your setup may be factory?but what the hell with thouse parts you can bild a nice moter for any project unless your a purest and wount every thing as factory instaled. |
| | | RE: 428: Could it be original? Please help. -- Chad, 10/17/2004
Thanks for your info giacamo. I'm not really a purist but what I'm trying to do is rule out the possibilty that this is a 390 block thats been bored to 4.13(because it needs to go more now).If this block/crank/head/intake/ cam combo was found on factory 428's I'm somewhat closer to knowing what I'm dealing with. I know nothing about this engine's original application. I found it in a 71 F-250! |
| | | | RE: 428: Could it be original? Please help. -- McQ, 10/18/2004
One thing right up front, I've never seen a 428 block with a C5AE casting. Now note that is what I've "seen". Every 428 block I've l've looked at had a C6## casting or later, i.e., C7##, C8##(You're getting into Cobra Jet stuff with the C8##/later castings).
Like you and giacamo, I'm not a purist by any means. You may have a very good block but you need to have it sonic tested/mapped to know whether it can handle an overbore beyond the current 4.13 you state it has.
As for the C6-R heads with the dual bolt patterns, they're likely to be '66 Fairlane GT heads and the -S- intake could be from any 390-428 standard 4V in '66. But it too may have come with the heads and been from the same F'lane GT donor. All the 3990GT engine had over a standard 390-4V was a nice mild performance oriented cam, C6OZ-B, and a Holley 600 CFM center pivot float.
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| | | | | Partial VIN stamping? -- Chad, 10/18/2004
This block has a stamping on the little tang at the front of the engine just below the deck surface. It reads 5C-64-3 .How do I decode this ?Thanks in advance |
| worth of fe upper end -- glennz, 10/16/2004
not looking to sell parts on this forum, unless not sold locally, have a friend that has a complete stock upper end consisting of CJ heads, 4 V intake, and stock exhaust manifolds, ( if i remember right these manifolds are unique to the heads correct ) not sure if he has the carb so give me a worth without carb, all parts are from a 67 GTA mustang, he has a guy interested in them but friend has no idea what to ask, all parts are in great condition |
| | RE: worth of fe upper end -- glennz, 10/17/2004
no ideas ? would like to let him no tomarrow |
| | RE: worth of fe upper end -- giacamo, 10/17/2004
with all the alum intakes and heads on the market it,s hard to price the stock stuf any more, the exaust manifolds i,v bought reicentily and gave $175 for and thought was a decent deal. |
| | | RE: $CJ upper end -- McQ, 10/18/2004
Here's what I "thinks":
C8OE-N heads......$500, maybe $600 to a resto person.
C8OE-C intake......$150, maybe $200 to the same resto person.
CJ ex.mflds........$500, maybe $600. These are available now in repro for around $500.
Hope that gives you a ball park idea based on what I've seen around here and on ebay.
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| | | | RE: $CJ upper end -- giacamo, 10/19/2004
holly shi..t i hope the guy i bought my exaust manifolds off of don,t see your prices. im glad he dont look at e bay, |
| | | | | RE: $CJ upper end -- McQ, 10/20/2004
As you indicated giacamo, you did get a decent deal....$175 for a set of CJ exhaust manifolds. I'm envious and happy for you.
But you're not going to get that deal very often anymore. Enjoy it while you can. The CJ ex.mflds. commonly got thrown in the corner of the garage/shop when replaced with headers. They got kicked around a lot before discarded or dumped. They're harder to find than the CJ heads. I think that's why a company is remanufacturing them now - they can sell them for $500! |
| | | | RE: The good days are over for restoration buyers. -- Gerry Proctor, 10/21/2004
Your estimations are in line with the market I've observed.
The only real area of market influence has been in the non-restoration market.
We folks who were looking for a better head than the garden variety FE heads had no real options other than the factory CJ or 427 heads. That forced us to compete with the restoration market for these heads.
With the aftermarket alternatives now available, the prices for CJ heads in good shape has fallen by nearly half. C8OE-N heads were selling between $900 and $1,000 about five years ago. Now that they're real value is as a restoration item we who are not doing restorations are interested in them only if we can get them cheap.
CJ exhaust manifolds are probably going to be expensive for a long time, though I have no idea what makes resto manifold worth $500. There are still deals to be found but those days are getting fewer. |
| stock fe rods -- jeff, 10/16/2004
I am building a 428 with aftermarket healthy cam..heads , headers and so on , it wont be seeing more than 6000 rpm. Are the stock rods ok to use ? thanks jeff |
| | RE: stock fe rods -- giacamo, 10/16/2004
i,v pushed the stock rods to the 7500 range and ben lucky ? in a 390, in a 428 thay seam to be a littel ruffer on parts at higher rpm, i,d use better than stock bolts and have the rods resized and shotpeaned. my two cents, |
| | | RE: stock fe rods -- russ, 10/17/2004
that;s good 2 cents worth, i resized , bal. with arp hardware mine been dragracing mine for years. thats my 1.5 cents worth, |
| | | | RE: stock fe rods -- Gary XL, 10/20/2004
I built a 2 BBl hi-po motor (9.5-1 cp) from a 64 Maruader back in 1986, drove it for a year and put it in the barn until this year. The rods are stock, resizes and balanced with new arp bolts, also used a small Cran solid cam but can't find the spec sheet after 20 years. This motor has seen 6800 rpm in 86-87 in my 64 Galaxie XL stick convertible, adn has been to about 6500 since pulled out of the barn in May this year. Changed the oil, replaced a bent pushrod,a dn it runs beter now than I remember it running whein it was parked (could have been the bent pushrod huh?) Point is Yes the factory rods are good peices when properly prepped. |
| | | | | RE: stock fe rods -- Gary XL, 10/20/2004
Should have mentioned I did use the stock 64 4 bbl manifold and card setup, and the factory short cast iron headers. Had a chance to get the long ones but they hit the convertible X frame. |
| | | | | | RE: stock fe rods -- jeff, 10/20/2004
thanks gary , russ and giacamo for your advice i will use the stock rods, also I didnt realize all FE's used forged rods so thats even more reason to stick with them.
jeff |
| | | | | Whoops, fat fingered the numbers -- GaryXL, 10/28/2004
All, sorry for any confusion or the inevitable "yeah, whatever" from those who know. I just went back and reread my post here, and realized I fat fingered the keys. That will teach me to proof before posting. Post should have read "This motor has seen 5800 rpm in 86-87 in my 64 Galaxie XL stick convertible, and has been to about 5500 since pulled out of the barn in May this year." Also failed to include the fact that I did swap a 4 bbl (year correct) manifold and carb on during the rebuild.
I know the FE is a stout peice, but 6800 on a mostly stock motor would be a little hard to swallow. Again, my apologies for any confusion I caused.
GaryXL |
| | | | | | RE: Whoops, fat fingered the numbers -- Tim P, 10/31/2004
im using 428 rods in my .030 390 cid had the everything balance and arp bolts installed everything works wonderful as it should havent had the rpm past 5k yet haven't had the need to yet as it makes all of it,s 470 lbs of torque by 3800rpm then the hp comes in at that point around 360hp and goes up from there we didnt feel the need to dyno behond that point so its possible it produces more now with 8k on motor now wish you well on your project Tim P. |
| C4AE-B Crank -- dlask, 10/16/2004
Can someone tell me what these numbers mean? will this crank work in a truck? |
| FE questions -- BB67FB, 10/16/2004
hello to all. i am new to the forums, and have a lot of questions regarding the FE engines. I own a mustang that was an original 390 four speed car, but has a 289 in it now, and i hope to put a big block back in it again, but preferably a 428 or even a 427 if i can afford it. the car still has a four speed toploader in it, could it be the same tranny it originally came with? some have told me it could be, and other have said no, that they are not the same. also, what are the differences on the outside between the engines? i am considering putting a 390 in her right now, and building a 428 for her over time. any help would be appreciated! nick |
| | RE: FE questions -- McQ, 10/18/2004
The big block and small block top loaders are different. First, the small block's tranny has a longer input shaft. Second, the big block tranny is a 2.32 1st gear close ratio 4 speed whereas the standard 289 small block is a 2.78 wide ratio. A HP 289 came with a close ratio 2.32 also. I doubt someone installed this trans in your 'stang.
It's very likely, and this was/is somewhat common, the 2889 was intalled with its bell housing to the 390 tranny. It's an easy transition. Although I know guys who have done it and complained about how "doggy" there 289/302 was off the line-outta the hole (Well duh...that's why Ford engineers felt the lower first gear 2.78 was better matched for the low torque small block.
The differences between a 390/428/427 and a small block on the outside? A whole bunch! Not much is close....both have a distributor where it should be - up front.
If your Mustang is a true original big block car it deserves to have the big block put back in it. There are other forums right here that can help you too. You'll need the engine mounts/towers, probably the radiator and lots of other small things. You'll need to do your research but it will all be worth it. And I mean worth it in actual $$. A big block '67-'70 Mustang is worth a lot of money now. |
| | | RE: FE questions -- BB67FB, 10/18/2004
McQ, Thanks for the info! In the differences of engines on the outside, I was referring to the FE engines themselves, as a 390 might be put in her soon due to financial reasons, but I would like to put a 427 or 428 in her in the future, so the question was more aimed at the idea of getting all the swap parts - motor mounts, transmission stuff if needed, headers, radiator, ect - going with the 390 for now, then a better engine in the future. any help or suggestions are welcomed!! Especially in finding parts for the swap! I am located in San Diego, so if any one is close, contact me! thanks again for all of everyones help! nick |
| | | | RE: FE questions -- McQ, 10/18/2004
There's no real differences between the FE, wait, there is too! The '64 and older FE have a two bolt engine mount provision whereas the '65 & later have a three bolt system. The earlier blocks can fit your '67 Mustang. A lot of guys did install earlier HP blocks into '67 390 Mustangs, mainly the 427.
Again, you need to search this site for parts availability and expertise to help you know all the parts you'll need. |
| | | RE: Mostly correct on the TL but not entirely -- Gerry Proctor, 10/19/2004
Here are the differences and possibilities:
Nearly all (terminology you have to use as a qualifier when discussing FoMoCo) small block Top Loaders were wide ratio units with the 2.78 1st gear ratio. They were 10-spline 1 1/8" input and 28-spline outputs. We're excluding the very early 25-spline units in this reference.
Most big block Top Loaders were also wide ratio units with the same in and out diameters and spline count as the small block unit. Big block, small input TLs were available in both close (2.32 1st gear) and wide ratio (2.78 1st) from the factory and what you got greatly depended on the final drive ratio but, again, most were wide ratio.
The primary difference between the big and small block Top Loaders is in the length of the input pilot length. The input shafts to the end of the splines are exactly the same length but the small block has 3/8" more length on the pilot. A small block Top Loader can be used in a big block application by trimming that 3/8" off the pilot. Obviously, you can't untrim a big block Top Loader to fit a small block car. There are some extended length pilot bushings that can be used to accommodate this transplant. You can also use a small block TL behind an FE if you use the truck FE bellhousing since this housing has about 3/8" greater depth. Though you may have to grind on the housing a bit depending on the style and diameter clutch you use. You can also just replace the input shaft with one of the correct pilot length.
Now not all big block Top Loaders are created equal. The 427 cars and the '68 and later high power cars like the 428 CJ/SCJ and the 429 cars were on tap for the big in and out Top Loaders. These transmissions, all close ratio from the factory, enjoyed an input diameter of 1 3/8" and 31-spline output shafts. From big block to big block, you can replace a small input TL with a big input TL but you'll be looking at a new clutch disc for the larger input and a corresponding throwout bearing for the larger input bearing collar. The output yoke will also have to be replaced with the 31-spline unit (same as the C6 yoke).
So it's entirely possible that what's behind the 289 is an FE toploader but, again, that's not saying much since there is no difference, strength-wise between a small input TL for either a small or big block.
And, through aftermarket support, while FoMoCo never offered a wide ratio big input TL, you can go that way if you wish. |
| | | | RE: Mostly correct on the TL but not entirely -- McQ, 10/20/2004
Gerry, first and foremost know that I fully appreciate your knowledge on the FE. You've been a frequent contributor here with, what I've found, to be excellent advice/recommendations. And your post here regarding the trusty TL is full of good facts/figures. I'm always lookin' to learn more.
Now, after all that, I have to ask, what big block FE powered Fords came from the plant with 2.78 low gear, wide ratio TL's? I keep re-reading your statement, "Most big block Top Loaders were also wide ratio units......". This is what has me confused here. I've always thought, this thinking based on personal experience with a number of big block/FE powered Fairlanes/Torinos/Galaxies, and Ford published shop manuals, that the 2.32 low gear-close ratio TL 4 speed was very commonly used behind the FE and HP 289's.
My first FE/T-loader 4 speed was from a late production '64 Galaxie 500/390-4V. It was a 2.32/C-ratio with the narrow trans. to bell bolt pattern. Other than the narrow tr. to bell bolt pattern, the exact same transmission was in a '65 Galaxie 390-4V car, two '66 Fairlane 390 cars, a '68 Montego 390.
With regard to final drive ratio gearing, the unibody cars were 3.25, the Galaxies were 3.50. A '62 HP390 Galaxie I had for a short while back in '67 was a factory 3.89 geared car but it had a BW T-10 and I don't remember what ratio it was. It was a typical BW T-10, bad 2nd gear synchro. I've never had a good BW T-10.
I just want to know where all the FE top loader 4 speed wide ratio 2.78 gear trannys went? I know a lot of guys have "built their own" 2.78 big block 4 speed. But "Most big block TL's were wide ratio"?
I'm seriously waiting to hear more about this WIDE issue. I'll be checking back tomorrow night after game 7, R-Sox/Yanks. |
| | | | | RE: The game is far more interesting at this point -- Gerry Proctor, 10/20/2004
I think that there's probably more interest in how this 3-3 series is going to come out than there is in the election.
Most smallblock Top Loaders did not find their way into K-code cars. I wouldn't classify the use of the close ratio unit behind a smallblock as an exception since it was far more prevalent than that term would allow but it's pretty safe to say that you would expect to find a close ratio unit behind a K-code and a wide ratio behind a C-code 289. And if you look at the availability of the close ratio unit as they pertain to smallblock cars, the wide ratio box is prominent across all car lines throughout the production years.
As to the big block cars, it's far more likely to find the close ratio unit behind a legitimate performance engine with an axle ratio higher than the common 3.0. The only validation I have for what I offered is anecdotal information from David Kee, a noted Top Loader authority. Should you be surprised to find a close unit behind a big block of any year or car line? Not at all and that's backed up by the fact that it was universally available but the odds favored it being a wide unit based upon configuration options. It's also interesting to note that when selecting the 4-speed option that there was nothing to distinguish a selection for either wide or close. Using a '67 Fairlane as an example, the 4-speed was an option with any V8 except in the station wagon. They made a lot fewer 390 GT cars than they did 390 63C standard hardtop cars.
As for what I can prove...well, that amounts to nothing. And I'd have to say you have me there. |
| | | | | | RE: The game is far more interesting at this point -- McQ, 10/20/2004
Things are lookin' good for the Bean Town folks, top-o-da'5th, 8-1. I ain't a "Yankee Hater" either, Mel Stottlemyre's from my hometown! But it'd be fun to see the R-sox make it for a Big Show change.
Your explanation is clear and concise and informative. Thanks Gerry. I wasn't asking you to prove anything. You don't need to. It just shows me again that when I start thinkin' I know so much........I still have a long ways to go. And I don't necessarily want to get there too quickly. |
| | engine swap -- junior mints, 10/19/2004
Put a Windsor with a 4.125 stroke. You will have a 427 small block that will romp all over an FE. Period. The FE is a great big, heavy, expensive, gas guzzling, out of date slup. Thank you for your support and understanding. |
| | | RE: engine swap -- russ, 10/19/2004
i think you were asking diff. in fe 390,427,428 exterally. there isn;t any except when it comes to exh. bolt pattern and 427 high riser which is higher, you would have a hard time finding one. if you use stock exh. manafolds 428 and 427/390gt.bolt patterns are diff. 428 is ext. balanced 390/427 int. balanced.so if your picking parts here and there be careful what you buy. |
| | | RE: engine swap -- BB67FB, 10/19/2004
thanks for the input, and that was something i considered for a while, but she came with a FE and thats what i want back in her!! |
| | | RE: engine swap -- McQ, 10/20/2004
Okay, BB67FB has hisself an -S- code '67 'stang. He/she can re-install an FE in it, have some great power and have increased the value of his/her car immensely.
Then again, a "modern" stroked/punched small block is tempting. But interesting? Not to most who regularly read, or contribute, and enjoy this forum.
Wait a minute...... I get it, Bubba's back! You trixter. New name, same ol'game. We understand you and we'll support you through it all. |
| | | | No, that's Stanley Superior. -- Gerry Proctor, 10/20/2004
I didn't detect the same animosity (causing trouble just to cause trouble. No interesting debate...just trouble) in Bubba. Bubba may have been a bit abrasive, but he wasn't entire devoid of all value as Stanley is notorious for. |
| | | | | Not exactly - see the '427 vs 427' thread, above. [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/20/2004
n/m |
| FE into 57 T-Bird -- Bo Fabre, 10/14/2004
Any body out there ever swap a FE motor into a 57 Bird or know of any? Whats required for motor mounts, will C6 work? Any headers availible? |
| | RE: FE into 57 T-Bird -- salid, 10/15/2004
Hey Bo There used to be 57 in the Boise valley that had a 427 in it. You'll need a remote oil filter location. The one I saw had it mounted on the inner fender. If I recall correctly, he used the stock box exhaust manifolds. This was in '67, so CJ manifolds were not available yet, I'm not even real sure they would fit. Seems like he did use a C6, but he had to modify the well to fit. It was really nose heavy, but it would really go. The nose heavy condition could probably be helped a lot by the alluminum heads and intakes available now. The car belonged to a dentist, I'll see if I can track him down and get back with you. |
| | | RE: FE into 57 T-Bird -- Bo Fabre, 10/18/2004
Thanks for the info...Bo |
| | | | RE: FE into 57 T-Bird -- salid, 10/26/2004
I finally tracked down the car. It was actually a '56. The fella I knew that had the car had sold it. The car was destroyed in a crash, killing the new owner. (It really was nose heavy) The man that did the installation has also passed away.
The previous owner could not really remember any more details than what I had already mentioned. This is a do-able project, but I'd use aluminum heads and intake to keep the weight off the front end. |
| | | | | RE: FE into 57 T-Bird -- FPA Racing, 01/05/2005
Yes, F.P.A. has the header for that T-Bird /FE swap. |
| 428 Exhaust Leaks -- RGS0907, 10/14/2004
How hard is it to get to the exhaust manifold bolts on a 428? I tried getting up there on my 1969 Shelby & it was a challenge. I've had leaks that keep coming back & would like to try & retighten them. Are there any tricks to getting up in there?
A few years back a shop milled the heads slightly & added a header gasket, but even that is now loose...
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| | RE: 428 Exhaust Leaks -- salid, 10/15/2004
It's real tight in there, isn't it. I had the same problem with headers. First, be real patient. Get some good quality flex joints for your sockets. Get more than one, some folks have been known to break them. Try taking out the long bolt in the motor mount, one side at a time and then rock the engine up on one side with a jack under the oil pan. Protect the pan so you wont ding it. Yes, you do need to loosen the bolts in the transmission crossover. When I did this the first time, I went to Sears and got a 1/4 inch drive socket set and a hand full of flex joints. I bought it intending to "use it up" on that project. I took the correct size socket to the grinder and ground it down so the it was just deep enough for the bolt head. That gave me a little more room for the flex joint to fit. I'm really old and mature now, so I don't swear anymore, but that seemed to help at the timmme. &%#$, did I spell that wrong? Wait a minute, maybe I'm not as old as I thought.
By the way, try some some of those wrinkle type lock washers, so you wont get to do this again next year. |
| | Have you lately checked all mating surfaces for true? [n/m] -- Mr F, 10/20/2004
n/m |
| Looking for FE Scattershield -- lucas, 10/13/2004
Need Lakewood scattershield for FE engine. Anyone have one available, please contact me ASAP! Thanks! |
| | RE: Looking for FE Scattershield -- McQ, 10/14/2004
I e-mailed you Lucas to let you know about the Lakewood shield I have that I'll sell. Cranking Hank never got back to me with his zip. |
| | | RE: Looking for FE Scattershield -- Glenn, 10/15/2004
McQ, please send me the info also if lucas is not interested. Thanks, G. |
| | | RE: Looking for FE Scattershield -- Glenn, 10/15/2004
McQ. please send me the info if lucas is not interested. Thanks, G. |
| | | | RE:waitng until Mon., 10/18, for response -- McQ, 10/17/2004
I'll do it Glenn. I haven't heard back from Lucas this weekend. I had it weighed to his zip. I'll give him until Monday, 10/18, to let me know. |
| 1963 1/2 Galaxie Front End -- Ash, 10/13/2004
I was just wondering if any of you could help me find out where to source an aftermarket front end for my Galaxie. I want to get rid of the steering linkages, maybe someone makes a kit with a Mustang II steering rack? Also I would like to get rid of the big and bulky upper and lower control arms, maybe someone makes a strut or a coil over front end? Thanks in advance, Ash. |
| | I've seen front ends like you want, -- Lou, 10/27/2004
but not in quite a few years. They are custom made and very big dollars and were found not to be worth the investment. (Mustang II will not work on a fullsize Ford for a number of reasons) |
| What Carb to use - 1969 Cougar, mild 390 ? -- mike, 10/12/2004
I have a 1969 Cougar with a mildly built 390 with a automatic. What carb would you use?
9.5 to 1, edlebrock rpm performer, FPA headers comp cam 487 intake 493 exhaust balanced.
thanks |
| | RE: What Carb to use - 1969 Cougar, mild 390 ? -- giacamo, 10/13/2004
600 to 650 range |
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